Quick words of advice required - pretty please!

[gjm]

Just received some pics of a car we are considering. It's known to be far from perfect, but if the price is right, maybe...? Anyway, the current owner tells me that this is pretty much all of the rust he's found on the car.

Specifically, anyone have an idea of what's happened with the front inner wing?

More generally, how bad, on the face of it, does this car appear to be? (To those who know about these things!)

TIA.

 

[x_atlas0]

To fix that, you would need to remove the entire front clip, take everything down to the firewall, and make several key structural members from scratch. This one is done.

 

[jmackro]

the current owner tells me that this is pretty much all of the rust he's found on the car.

My God, how much more rust needs to be found before declaring this a parts car?

Unfortunately, these are the common areas for rust on an e9 , and as X_atlas0 writes, when the corrosion is this advanced it's pretty much fatal. It would NOT be economical to try to restore this car regardless of how low its price might be. You will never find a rust-free coupe, but you should be able to find a better starting point for your restoration.

 

[Orangener]

He didn't die of old age, but of loss by rust and oxidation !
This car is beyond all hope, or you have many demands on your purse.
Like we say in german: Dieser Vogel ist tot !

 

[61porsche]

PIC 1. Looks like the sealing that was used to protect the A pillar area turned loose and rust formed under. The current owner was right to remove it to see what extent the damage was. Some vendors carry the patch panels for that area, but as you live in the UK there are several good panelbeaters who could possible make up what would be needed. If there were something positive to say it might be that it seems to be lower than higher towards the windscreen. Open the glove box and look up at the area also.

Pic two- closing area- normal repairs at a glance. Depends how far it goes beyond what the camera shows and pic 3.

Pic 3- Outside rocker- depends again on what you can't see. Do the front floor panels look good at the rocker area? It's like finding coal or candy sometimes until you can see what's underneath.

Pic 4- Rear floor area- pretty straightforward replacement and availablity is good for the peices. Try to determine the source of what happened to stop the cause if possible.

I realize these types and extent of repairs are alarming to some and not for others. Buy the best you can afford to start with and don't get over emotionally caught up in the find. Do your homework and be satisfied with what lies ahead with your resonable expectations.

 

[x_atlas0]

Pic 3 (inner fender past the shock tower) is the deal breaker. The rest of the rust is mostly superficial. The fact that it is a hole with multiple smaller holes around it says the entire panel will likely crumble if you breathe on it wrong. That particular area, the box behind the front wheel, is a fairly common rust point, but to fix that level of decay, you have to tear everything down to the firewall, assuming that is still there, behind the wheel well box.

 

[gjm]

Thanks - I have heeded your advice!

It is a good-looking car... until you start looking hard. It was the subject of £7.5k worth of bodywork back in 1987, but apart from what I (we) know to be trouble, there may be more. I suspect the seller doesn't know the full extent or implication of what he's told me - what he's sent details of is pretty much exactly the areas I asked about.

I'm sure it could be saved, but to do it economically would need someone who knows how to weld. I can do a box-section chassis but bodywork crosses the line from engineering into art!

I really appreciate the details from you all. Just saying no is one thing - learning exactly why 'no' is perfect. It's more than likely saved me a huge bill and enormous heartache, on this occasion at least.

Asking price for this one was £3k. I'd thought £2k, and was fully expecting £3k for bodywork repairs. That may have been optimistic... Mechanical work I'll happily do myself.

If anyone knows of a (preferably pre-73) automatic with a solid body available in the UK, please let me know! I'll even consider one with a shot engine - I know where to find one from a 535i. :wink:

 

[chicane]

I'll bet the price is right. Run, don't walk.

 

[gjm]

I'll bet the price is right. Run, don't walk.

Nooooooo!!! I told the seller I needed some time to think it over (hadn't completely ruled it out) and that if someone else was interested then to sell it on. It was the fairest thing to do.

Unfortunately (perhaps?) I think he's done just that. Can't say I blame him.

It had some nice BBS alloys, too...

 

[jmackro]

Asking price for this one was £3k. I'd thought £2k, and was fully expecting £3k for bodywork repairs. That may have been optimistic...

I would say very optimistic. Any coupe you find is going to have some rust issues. I'd suggest that you research the cost of common body repair sections there in the UK, such as the four floor panels, lower fender patch pieces, a spare tire tub, etc. - parts that are likely to need replacement even on a coupe that isn't structurally compromised. I can tell you that here in the States those parts would approach $1,000. Of course, installing them adds at least that much again.

Additionally, a car that needs major surgery is going to also require a repaint. No matter how good it looks, after the body shop has torn it down enough to get at the nasty parts, the exterior will need refinishing. Again, establish a relationship with some local shops, and get some quotes - you're going to need to do this anyways once you find your coupe (in fact, talking with shops that do BMW mechanicals and paint is an excellent way to locate a coupe).

 

[x_atlas0]

I would say very optimistic. Any coupe you find is going to have some rust issues. I'd suggest that you research the cost of common body repair sections there in the UK, such as the four floor panels, lower fender patch pieces, a spare tire tub, etc. - parts that are likely to need replacement even on a coupe that isn't structurally compromised. I can tell you that here in the States those parts would approach $1,000. Of course, installing them adds at least that much again.

Additionally, a car that needs major surgery is going to also require a repaint. No matter how good it looks, after the body shop has torn it down enough to get at the nasty parts, the exterior will need refinishing. Again, establish a relationship with some local shops, and get some quotes - you're going to need to do this anyways once you find your coupe (in fact, talking with shops that do BMW mechanicals and paint is an excellent way to locate a coupe).

No joking there, I went to 10 different body shops over the course of 3 months getting quotes. Of those, only three would even take the job after seeing the car. Not many body shops take work like this anymore due to the higher time it takes compared to modern cars, where you can just pop off a panel, pop on a new one and you are done. Rust repair is a dying art. Of the three shops that would do it, while they were inspecting the car, I was inspecting their shop, their past work, and their techs/owners/whoever would be doing the work. It was akin to an interview or audition. In the end, I went with the one I felt would do the best job at the best price based on their past work. They even kept on schedule.

 

[gjm]

Thanks again.

I'm fortunate to live not far from Jaymic (although I've not used them) and have a copy of their CS catalogue. I've also contacted Walloth & Nesch in Germany. There's a US source for floor panels that I saw somewhere - I forget the name now but could quickly find it again.

Inspecting workshops is something we may do today. Jaymic have invited us to Cromer (has to be a good sign) and were very helpful over the phone. I'll not take everything they say as gospel truth but they obviously have far more knowledge than me.

The manager there was telling me how they've put cars on the lift and seen the door gaps widen at the top as the lift starts to raise... Time to put that one down again! They've not seen a car they couldn't fix, just cars that aren't economic to repair.

In the meantime I've found another relic of an E9 for sale. It was advertised as a 3.0 but the badge I can see on the roof in one pic looks to read 2800. It doesn't have a sunroof, but may had vinyl? 'Had' is the operative word! Rather than fill the forum with pics of rusty cars, they've been resized and I've posted them on Picasa here.

If uploading them (I've a couple of dozen other pics of this car) will be useful to anyone, present or future, then I'll do that later.

 

[Orangener]

......and was fully expecting £3k for bodywork repairs........

Very optimistic price indeed !
At the moment I have an E12 in restauration, in Slovakia.
With spareparts and the work of my slovakian mechanic I have reached the 3000 Euro limit ! Without paintjob ! Thats 2k extra !
But spareparts for the E12 are veeeeery cheap, for example 49€ for a new front fender or 150€ for a new front mask !
Here is the link to my thread in english translation :

http://translate.google.at/translat...mans-e12-projekt-hoeni-2144797-5792707-0.html

Search for a car in better condition ! I did and found my "ugly duckling" !
No serious rust, no interior, but thats better than vice versa !

 

[m_thompson]

The attached image shows what you will most likely find after you cut the fender off. As a previous poster said, you can plan on $1,000 in parts cost per side. If one fender looks like that both probably need to be repaired.

The car can be repaired, but it may not be a reasonable investment of time and money. You need to get a quote for the repairs and repaint unless you can do this yourself. You will probably find that the restoration cost and the purchase cost are more than the car will be worth when completed.

I repaired mine at home for just the parts cost. If you are not experienced in metal fabrication and MIG welding don't try it yourself. If I were to do a coupe again, I would find one that is as rust free as possible and then do the mechanical/interior/paint repairs.

 

[jmackro]

I've found another relic of an E9 for sale. It was advertised as a 3.0 but the badge I can see on the roof in one pic looks to read 2800. It doesn't have a sunroof, but may had vinyl? 'Had' is the operative word! Rather than fill the forum with pics of rusty cars, they've been resized and I've posted them on Picasa here.

Graham:

Gee, that second coupe, the one you posted on Picasa, looks pretty bad too. I am going to guess that it rains from time to time there in Norwich. I suppose it is easy for we Californians to be dismissive about rusty coupes (though we get our share here as well), so I don't want to sound negative - but, I'd suggest that you keep looking.

That area between the top of the front fender and the inner fender well that is visible with the hood open is the first place to look when evaluating rust. Corrosion there is both common, and expensive to fix.

 

[gjm]

It's not just the rain - it's the 6 months of the year when it can be just 'damp' Add to that plenty of rock salt strewn over the roads as soon as temperatures look like they might hit freezing, and it's a wonder any old cars still exist in the UK.

Saw another E9 today - beautiful. Loads of history, receipts for work, immaculate interior. And an asking price commensurate with such apparently good condition - £14k. (Offers will be considered.)

Using my limited expertise, learnt here, I was able to see that even if I had £10k+ I'd not be buying that one either. Sills (rockers) looked lovely but were 'soft' - I suspect a screwdriver would have gone straight through with very little effort. The engine bay around the base of the A-pillar was similar, and peeling the edges of the front and rear screen seals revealed some beautiful lacework. Didn't look any further.

The seller wasn't impressed. He'd obviously gone to a lot of trouble cleaning and tidying the car for sale; whether he knew of the problems I couldn't say.
There aren't all that many RHD automatic E9s in the UK. Hopefully there's a solid, or very nearly solid, one left at a reasonable price.

 

[gjm]

The attached image shows what you will most likely find after you cut the fender off. As a previous poster said, you can plan on $1,000 in parts cost per side. If one fender looks like that both probably need to be repaired.

The car can be repaired, but it may not be a reasonable investment of time and money. You need to get a quote for the repairs and repaint unless you can do this yourself. You will probably find that the restoration cost and the purchase cost are more than the car will be worth when completed.

I repaired mine at home for just the parts cost. If you are not experienced in metal fabrication and MIG welding don't try it yourself. If I were to do a coupe again, I would find one that is as rust free as possible and then do the mechanical/interior/paint repairs.

That's really not very nice! How do the front wings (fenders) fit to the car? Are they bolted, welded, spot-welded, a combination of the foregoing?

I can see, from my strictly amateur viewpoint, how it would be sorted. I can also see how much work is involved.

 

[JhwShark]

That's really not very nice! How do the front wings (fenders) fit to the car? Are they bolted, welded, spot-welded, a combination of the foregoing?

I can see, from my strictly amateur viewpoint, how it would be sorted. I can also see how much work is involved.

It's a unibody...no bolts, welds of different types in different locations...
Jon

 

[JohnHein]

Quick words of advice required

I don't mean to hijack this thread, but the same request for words of advice applies. My circumstance is -unfortunately- post purchase of a "99% rust free example". It's that 1% you can't see that kills you. See this link:

http://picasaweb.google.com/113520759960331397114/2800CSFenderRust#

I showed/told the Houston group that met last week that I finally got the alcohol induced courage to peel back the coating under the hood to see what really lurks beneath. While it does not appear as bad as some of the rust porn that gets shown around this site, it still gives one pause before proceeding.

The car is overall pretty solid and could make for a nice weekend driver. The shots on the link are the big problem. Rockers look good, also around the windows and door sills. One bubble on the bottom of the door and some of the usual bumps and bruises. The car has had some front and rear repair in the past. I would appreciate a group critique. More pics can be provided.

 

[thehackmechanic]

how front fenders are attached

The front fenders are lap-seamed at the corners of the windshield. Thus, in order to see what dangers lurk beneath the fenders, the windshield has to come out and the fenders have to be cut off. It's not like a 2002 where you just have to get through the superficial smoothing of the fender to the nose, unbolt the 10mm bolts holding the fender to firewall, and pull it off. On an E9 you have to send all the troops in for battle, prepared to lose them all.

DO NOT BUY AN E9 THAT SHOWS FRONT SHOCK TOWER RUST! Unless you weld and do your own rust repair, there is no way that it will ever be cost-effective as compared to buying a solid car.

--Rob