RestoMod vs. Original and their Values

rb1971

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The El Camino 2002 currently on Germancarsforsaleblog.com is a perfect example of what I thnk of as la k of respect for the marque.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but since I have been in this car a few times (it's a 1600 camino technically) and know the guy who built it very well - since he also built my E9 - all I can say is that your view on lack of respect for the marque is pretty far from the truth. Just because you wouldn't do something doesn't make it bad - there's a ton of 1600/2002 cars out there if you want to do something original.

ETA: I would proudly drive the car that was the genesis of this thread.
 

bfeng

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Mileage is a weird thing

If a car has been nut and bolt restored, mileage may not mAtter at all.

If it is a survivor (my nice original and rust free e-type at 53k miles) it might add 10%.
I have two friends who have xk120's with under 6k miles (that's over 60 years). They get 50 miles added every year. That mileage is probably worth +75% over one with 100k miles.

Personally, higher mileage doesn't bother me. Who wants to worry about driving too much? Once mileage passes 100k miles, I just take it as a sign the car will need most of the mechanicals, all the rubber bits and much of the wiring restored before it'll be reliable as a regula driver.
 

GroupeB

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Original will win in the end

All:
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but unless BMW E9's break every rule in the car collector book that is slowly building, the Original cars will, in the end, have more value than modified ones. While you are welcome to modify the car, when all is said and done, I doubt you will have the value an original car will have.
You cannot give modified Ferraris away, and "Original" everything from Minis to 911's, Audi RS2's, all the way through to Series 1 and 2 Batmobiles will be (or are already) worth more than modified cars. A modified or poorly restored CSL or B'Mobile is worth far less right now.
I am certain that this Agave car could be sold quickly to a European market, and I suggest trying an ad on www.Mobile.de.
And side bar on the touch up of the fender ding: any competent paint shop that deals in these cars can make a new 2 part paint match perfectly. My Ceylon car is testament to that. If my guy can blend in a metallic match, Agave will be a piece of cake.
If I did not already have 3 E9s this car would have been sold and in my garage. Hmmm, that gives me an idea.
Love this forum, so much more interesting a group that those stodgy Ferrari owners.
 

bfeng

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question for GroupB

All:
the Original cars will, in the end, have more value than modified ones.
So, I'm not one of those rich guys with vintage Ferrari's and Maserati's.
Take my opinions with that in mind.

Q1: is changing an automatic to a 4spd a modification? How about changing a 4 to a 5spd? How about upgrading the brakes to those from a newer car? Window motors? Rotary AC compressor? Brake booster from a tii? Period correct Alpina engine accessories added in recent times? LSD where there was none before?

Q2: In my very limited experience, there are only a few things that significantly drive value down in the end (1) permanent mods done to the body & interior like a steel trunk on a CSL or recaros in place of the original Scheels or a white headliner on a CSL, (2) non-numbers matching drivetrain.

Q2: I've got a space opening up in the barn for one of those modified Ferrari's that people can't seem to give away. I'll make it easy for you ... a 365 2+2 from the late 1960's would be ideal. I'd even take it if it's not quite free...
 

Aussiecsi

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...anyone that buys an E9 as an investment is nuts . Cost base on my csi that I I've had for 27 years is $0 ...after spending say $30 -$40k on another light resto ,it may be worth?....$30-$40k!(gold fittings and cigar bar notwithstanding) .Buy an E9 and enjoy the ride ( pun intended ) . If you want to make money, I know some Nicaraguan Generals that are very obliging :)
Cheers, Simon
 

LarryE9E10

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Hobby-ist Cars vs. Collector Cars

There was an similarly interesting discussion recently on the 2002FAQ regarding values and originality. The gist of that exchange was that our cars are really more "hobby-ist" and "enthusiast" cars than "collector" cars in the traditional sense. The "enthusiast" values the driving experience and the pleasure that operating and working on the car brings. This orientation accomodates changes that improve the driving experience at the price of originality. In contrast, the "collector" values exclusivity/rarity (which our coupes really cannot claim compared to, say the 39 Ferrari 250 GTOs in existence) and "purity." Just as you would not change the color of the Mona Lisa's hair because you prefer blondes to brunettes, the value of a "collector" piece is decreased by almost any alteration. For whatever reasons, few BMWs have attracted the attention and lust of the "collector" community (with exceptions for the 328, 507, and, to some extent, the M1).

So the bottom line is that a car is not sold or purchased in a vacuum. Any seller of a coupe needs to recognize what the audience of buyers values and that the universe of coupe buyers is different from the universe of buyers for vintage Jaguars, Porsches, and Italiana.
 

Aussiecsi

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...anyone that buys an E9 as an investment is nuts . Cost base on my csi that I I've had for 27 years is $0 ...after spending say $30 -$40k on another light resto ,it may be worth?....$30-$40k!(gold fittings and cigar bar notwithstanding) .Buy an E9 and enjoy the ride ( pun intended ) . If you want to make money, I know some Nicaraguan Generals that are very obliging :)
Cheers, Simon
......Apologies to "Nicaraguan" Generals ....I meant "Nigerian"....a big difference ! :)
 

Aussiecsi

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There was an similarly interesting discussion recently on the 2002FAQ regarding values and originality. The gist of that exchange was that our cars are really more "hobby-ist" and "enthusiast" cars than "collector" cars in the traditional sense. The "enthusiast" values the driving experience and the pleasure that operating and working on the car brings. This orientation accomodates changes that improve the driving experience at the price of originality. In contrast, the "collector" values exclusivity/rarity (which our coupes really cannot claim compared to, say the 39 Ferrari 250 GTOs in existence) and "purity." Just as you would not change the color of the Mona Lisa's hair because you prefer blondes to brunettes, the value of a "collector" piece is decreased by almost any alteration. For whatever reasons, few BMWs have attracted the attention and lust of the "collector" community (with exceptions for the 328, 507, and, to some extent, the M1).

So the bottom line is that a car is not sold or purchased in a vacuum. Any seller of a coupe needs to recognize what the audience of buyers values and that the universe of coupe buyers is different from the universe of buyers for vintage Jaguars, Porsches, and Italiana.
Larry, the analogy of the Mona Lisa is a good one ... Most things on an E9 can be "reversed" ... not sure about say a hand drawn crayon handle -bar moustache on Mona L would be as easy
 

NewSixCoupe

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There's an interesting and relevant article in the July issue of Automobile about collector car preservation and originality vs use and restoration. I love it when the phrase "ethical honesty" is used to describe the tension inherent in deciding whether to repaint a body panel or leave it as is...
 

bimbill

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The 100 point conundrum

I have seen this debate surface every few years and I am, to this day, not sure I understand why our cars seem to break the rules regarding "collector" value.

However, I'll just throw this out there. Is it that unlike many other marques, there is no system of national points judging as is found in the Classic Car Club of America or the Jaguar, Porsche, etc. clubs? The natural tendency among owners is to follow the crowd so if you own a long hood 911, the date stamps on the wheels probably matter to you because you'll get dinged for points if they don't match. And this probably matters even if you never intend to compete for points.

Of course this is a chicken vs. egg discussion. It still doesn't explain why BMW owners went down this path in the first place. For me, I fall in the camp that is glad for the current status of our cars.
 

bfeng

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Lets do an example

Larry, the analogy of the Mona Lisa is a good one ... Most things on an E9 can be "reversed" ... not sure about say a hand drawn crayon handle -bar moustache on Mona L would be as easy
Say we have a 2800CSa with the usual upgrades of 3.5fi, 5spd, lsd, better brakes, 528 window motors, Sanden compressor, bilsteins w CN springs and big bars. But luckily all the original part were kept and came w the car. In this case you could "erase" the mustache by restoring those parts And reinstalling them. Minimum use of repro parts is desired because the goal is not to build a catalog 65Mustang.

I contend you could restore all the old parts for around $16k (maybe not the AC compressor and old shocks). Lets say remove/install time is 50 hours which might be $4k.
That implies the max negative impact on the originality is around $20k. If you sold the upgrades perhaps you recover $8k. So net is -$12k due to non-originality. That's no so bad.

If the car has been repainted ... To bad...
 

ohio2800cs

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There was an similarly interesting discussion recently on the 2002FAQ regarding values and originality. The gist of that exchange was that our cars are really more "hobby-ist" and "enthusiast" cars than "collector" cars in the traditional sense. The "enthusiast" values the driving experience and the pleasure that operating and working on the car brings. This orientation accomodates changes that improve the driving experience at the price of originality. In contrast, the "collector" values exclusivity/rarity (which our coupes really cannot claim compared to, say the 39 Ferrari 250 GTOs in existence) and "purity." Just as you would not change the color of the Mona Lisa's hair because you prefer blondes to brunettes, the value of a "collector" piece is decreased by almost any alteration. For whatever reasons, few BMWs have attracted the attention and lust of the "collector" community (with exceptions for the 328, 507, and, to some extent, the M1).

So the bottom line is that a car is not sold or purchased in a vacuum. Any seller of a coupe needs to recognize what the audience of buyers values and that the universe of coupe buyers is different from the universe of buyers for vintage Jaguars, Porsches, and Italiana.
Larry...well said

There was a time in the distance past when the 1960's Ferrari's where just some very nice "enthusiast" cars too. I did well selling my spare parts when they transitioned to "collector" cars. Seemed like many owners were reversing the previous owner's mods or removing non-Ferrari replacement parts (quest for originality).
 

E911

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it will be interesting to see the posts searching for engine #... all in good time
 

BimmerBud

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OK--in the big picture, there were relatively many E9's built, with the exception of the CSL's. It is YOUR car, so enjoy it for what it is. There is fine art which gives you a far greater appreciation, with far less maintenence, than classic cars do, and that includes EVERY level of classic cars. The BIG advantage with our cars is that you get to DRIVE your exhibit rather than TRANSPORT it to whatever venue in which it appears. We are all caretaker's of what we own, and life is short, so why quibble over a purist's view, for one that enhances the ride. ENJOY your car for what it is. That's my $.02 worth.
 

74EuroE9

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To have and to hold...

To each his own. Everyone should freely modify their car to their own taste and purpose. So have at it with gusto!

That said, if there is a marque out there that is unsung and undervalued, it is BMW. Out of the blue, the E9 could easily find itself under the spotlight as the new darling of the collector car world. By association, this could very likely pull up values of 2002s and other BMWs of interest.
 

Nicad

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OK--in the big picture, there were relatively many E9's built, with the exception of the CSL's. It is YOUR car, so enjoy it for what it is. There is fine art which gives you a far greater appreciation, with far less maintenence, than classic cars do, and that includes EVERY level of classic cars. The BIG advantage with our cars is that you get to DRIVE your exhibit rather than TRANSPORT it to whatever venue in which it appears. We are all caretaker's of what we own, and life is short, so why quibble over a purist's view, for one that enhances the ride. ENJOY your car for what it is. That's my $.02 worth.
+1!!
 

scottd

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Rust

Doesn't the rust problem with e9s figure into the value equation? I believe the inherent problems with rust keep the "overall" values down. Yes, all cars of that era were prone to rust, but not as rampant as e9s.

You can't read an article about an e9 without this shortcoming being brought up. My favorites..."they rusted almost immediately upon leaving the factory," or "rusts when you look at them wrong". If someone outside of this corner of the world wants to collect, he/she might be hesitant, and opt for another marque of the same era. Correcting these problems is a losing proposition for a collector/investor, right?

Also- haven't the 2002 turbo values been pretty strong when compared to the coupes?
 

NoR32

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I tend to watch the MECUM, R and M , Barrette Jackson auction when I can and it seems that resto mods now are bringing almost them same money as Matching number cars but it depends on the quality of the work done also, obviously. As for the matching numbers I think will only matter for the CSL's as mentioned.
 

bfeng

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Have you seen how badly old Aston DB5's from the 1960's rust? Yes the outer skin is alloy, but the under structure is steel, and even the alloy has issues where it's in contact with steel (galvanic). Some of the Italian cars from the 1950's are horrendously complex to do. These are all just as challenging as the E9 if not more so. It helps that those cars are worth >$200k when done...

And ... have you every seen a 356 fully disassembled for rust repair? I friend of mine is doing a nut and bolt on one right now, and the same multiple-overlapped panels with moisture trapping narrow spaces exists on those cars. It's so bad that after getting dipped I can see a flash light shine thru the entire car (literally from one side to the other) in the rear quarter panel areas.

So, while E9's are bad, they're no worse than other "rust prone" cars of the era.
So, why are 356's more sought after than E9's?
 
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