Solid 72 CS on Hemmings w/4bbl intake

[nahuston]

I need to measure the vents on the three cars I have, I can’t tell anything from the perspective of that photo.
Also these seatbelts are exactly like the ones in my friend’s 72 euro CSI.
Again clearly parts from several cars were used for this build and I don’t think you can make conclusive calls on what is “correct” - there is no claim of correctness.

 

[HB Chris]

Retractable front shoulder belts were introduced on MY 74 coupes mounted behind the rear armrests with unique armrests themselves. Just fyi.

 

[Markos]

I need to measure the vents on the three cars I have, I can’t tell anything from the perspective of that photo.
Also these seatbelts are exactly like the ones in my friend’s 72 euro CSI.
Again clearly parts from several cars were used for this build and I don’t think you can make conclusive calls on what is “correct” - there is no claim of correctness.

There is a period correct chin and an incorrect chin. It is one of the most vulnerable parts of the car and relatively easy to replace. My early car has a late chin. There are correct parts by year and this car (like many) is all over the board.

I think that my personal observation of the chin on this car was flawed. The picture indeed makes the outer vent look small. However, the spacing between the last vent and the bumper mount indicates that it is an early chin, not late. That was my fault. So the restoration photos match.

I made my observations initially in private without broadcasting my views. Now I am in a position to justify them. The car looks weird, the VIN looks weird. The parts don’t match. That was my private observation. Again, I was wrong about the chin.

What I told the interested party was that I have owned two very rusty cars and looked over several others. One place that the car does not rust is the cowl, where the VIN is located. So if you see a car with any damage, welds, or filler in that area pay close attention. The markings around the VIN in the ad had me concerned, and the marking on the back don’t help to ease that concern.

The car is already priced fair. Any discovery about the VIN doesn’t have a material effect on the value of a nice looking car in the 30’s (IMO). To the sellers point, this isn’t a concours car. My advice
to the potential buyer was to go ahead and buy it if the price is right, just know that the next string of buyers could be equally scrupulous.

I have been warned by people more savvy than I to let these things lie. I regret contributing to the controversy. If you want to put any speculation to rest, apply paint stripper to the firewall VIN.

 

[JayWltrs]

There is a period correct chin and an incorrect chin. It is one of the most vulnerable parts of the car and relatively easy to replace. My early car has a late chin. There are correct parts by year and this car (like many) is all over the board.

I think that my personal observation of the chin on this car was flawed. The picture indeed makes the outer vent look small. However, the spacing between the last vent and the bumper mount indicates that it is an early chin, not late. That was my fault. So the restoration photos match.

I made my observations initially in private without broadcasting my views. Now I am in a position to justify them. The car looks weird, the VIN looks weird. The parts don’t match. That was my private observation. Again, I was wrong about the chin.

What I told the interested party was that I have owned two very rusty cars and looked over several others. Once place that the car does not rust is the cowl, where the VIN is located. So if you see a car with any damage, welds, or filler in that area pay close attention. The markings around the VIN in the ad had me concerned, and the marking on the back don’t help to ease that concern.

The car is already priced fair. Any discovery about the VIN doesn’t have a material effect on the value of a nice looking car in the 30’s (IMO). To the sellers point, this isn’t a concours car. My advice
to the potential buyer was to go ahead and buy it if the price is right, just know that the next string of buyers could be equally scrupulous.

I have been warned by people more savvy than I to let these things lie. I regret contributing to the controversy. If you want to put any speculation to rest, apply paint stripper to the firewall VIN.

View attachment 82153View attachment 82154

I agree this car is fairly priced. Now, when you sell a car pieced from different bits w/ shiny VIN rivots, a VIN outline outside where the VIN is currently, a VIN stamp w more pristine definition & alignment of numbers than most period cars—I mean, c’mon, some questions are gonna come up. Story makes sense here & it may be purely academic when & what car bits the VIN was originally on.

I appreciate the seller coming on & joining the discussion. Folks here are good at respectfully calling BS on each other when they unfairly beat up a car. That said, I’ve seen some nonsensical shady stuff from sellers recently as prices rose, and I don’t think anyone should shy away from exploring cars‘ strengths or weaknesses, b/c a seller might get miffed. The Socratic method is painful, but usually works in the end among people of goodwill.

 

[nahuston]

Just to follow up, the vents on my 73 are the same length as this 72. I also have a stack of restoration photos now.

 

[HB Chris]

The shorter vents on the late 73 and all 74s is only 2 3/4”, you definitely have the longer vents.

 

[Markos]

The shorter vents on the late 73 and all 74s is only 2 3/4”, you definitely have the longer vents.

Agreed. I thought they were shorter also and mentioned my mistake on this a few posts up. Apologies for the confusion.

 

[naccer]

This has been quite the investigative journey...never had these concerns over on the E3 forum...One person commented that having 3 fjord coupes was 'odd' like these all somehow cross pollinated. It's not typical, but more like a coincidence. Nick's had his 3.0CS for 5 or 6 years, and it's one of the nicest original cars in the country. The one with triple carbs is a consignment, from a guy here who we all know in the Atlanta car community, who typically trades in 911's, and the one in question here was built by the previous owner. I know Nick's looked at this car several times over the past few years when the owner said he'd sell it then decided to keep it. As for the car itself, it's a cool car, and it was built to the previous owner's taste or the availability of parts, I think we all have to remember these were 10k-15k cars for a long time, and plenty of projects were put together / hot rods built, etc way before the internet.

I've bought and sold several cars with motorcar studio, including my 3.0Si which was commented on here a couple times, this is a good shop and I'm glad Nick got on here to make himself and the car available explaining what he knows about the car. No one's trying to hide anything on this one.

As an aside, this is part of why I got out of the car business, I loved the cars, but one wild thread on Ferrari Chat, or roadfly or any forum can drive an honest dealer insane. -NACCER

 

[2002turbo]

I for one found this thread extremely enlightening. After talking to Chris, I actually submitted an offer on this car via the contact form on the seller's website, but the offer got lost in cyberspace. That gave me pause, I am not superstitious normally but I thought about it some more and decided to keep my powder dry at least until some absentee bids I have pending are resolved. Now it comes out that the VIN has been messed with. I think that is a felony. I quote:

"1364. Altering Or Removing Motor Vehicle Identification Numbers. Section 511(a) of Title 18 makes it a felony knowingly to remove, obliterate, tamper with, or alter an identification number for a road motor vehicle or a road motor vehicle part "

So I think the value of the car is not only impaired, it is negative, as in "you would have to pay me to take possession of this car". Strange but true.

 

[HB Chris]

There is no proof the VIN was altered, we don’t need to spread rumors.

 

[Peter Coomaraswamy]

You are all crazy! If we knew half as much about global warming the problem would have been solved years ago

 

[CSteve]

You are all crazy! If we knew half as much about global warming the problem would have been solved years ago

Spot on Peter!

 

[Ohmess]

I for one found this thread extremely enlightening. After talking to Chris, I actually submitted an offer on this car via the contact form on the seller's website, but the offer got lost in cyberspace. That gave me pause, I am not superstitious normally but I thought about it some more and decided to keep my powder dry at least until some absentee bids I have pending are resolved. Now it comes out that the VIN has been messed with. I think that is a felony. I quote:

"1364. Altering Or Removing Motor Vehicle Identification Numbers. Section 511(a) of Title 18 makes it a felony knowingly to remove, obliterate, tamper with, or alter an identification number for a road motor vehicle or a road motor vehicle part "

So I think the value of the car is not only impaired, it is negative, as in "you would have to pay me to take possession of this car". Strange but true.

So, I committed a felony when I replaced my VIN plate with a new one?

 

[rsporsche]

i really think it was taken apart to paint ... things got lost and they put it back together with parts they could get, might have had rust in a few places or collision damage ... which meant the doors were replaced with parts from a euro parts car (roll up windows / euro speedo) ... a few parts from a '74 like the newer seatbelts and rear arm rests. just a guess ... but that is perhaps more credible than changing a VIN on the firewall. the riveted vin plate would have been removed for painting

 

[Markos]

So, I committed a felony when I replaced my VIN plate with a new one?

Technically yes. But you and I both know that replacing a bad VIN plate is not the same as swapping a VIN.

From this point on there will be nothing more than a tendency to takes sides. At the heart of this however, we are discussing a car. Not the integrity seller, or the owner. It’s all internet banter until some poor soul discovers that they have owned a VIN swapped car for 20 years, or that they just bought one at 2019 market value. Likewise,
having false claims thrown about is equally damaging. I have kept mouth shut on a BaT e9 VIN swap, and a CSL VIN swap. I will be sure to keep my comments quiet going forward, as I have been advised by enthusiasts much wiser and vocal than I.

This thread has run it’s course IMO...

 

[Ohmess]

My question was not entirely facetious.

Title 18, Section 511(b)(1) provides exceptions to the removal rule, and unless the person knows the vehicle is stolen, Section 511(b)(2)(B) provides an exception for “a person who repairs such vehicle…if the removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair.”

It is not technically a felony for me to replace a bad VIN plate.