Starter & carburetor problems

[Tundra]

I have a 72 with AT and Zenith carburetors. here is a description of two problems I have.

Starting: I can start the car with a remote starter. When I remove the remote starter and reconnect the wires the car will not start. The only sound I hear is a "clicking" by the steering column under the left side dash. There are two wires to be connected to the starter ( other than the positive "hot" wire. There is a black/red wire and a second wire , black. There are 3 prongs on the starter (bosch) to which these two wires can be connected. I have tried all possible connections and still nothing other than the clicking sound. I have also tried to wiggle the started switch wires as I turn the key still nothing. It's obviously not he starter as the car will start with the remote. Any ideas or suggestions? I would like to hot wire the starer switch but don't know which wire need to be connected. If I can start the car this way then I'll know it's something internal in the starter switch.

Second problem. When the engine is cold, the choke flaps on both carburetors are closed. When I start the car ( with the remote) both choke flaps open up completely and the car dies. I need to close the choke flap by hand on the front carburetor until the car is warm and then it will stay running, Another alternative is to keep my foot on the gas. Any ideas as to why the choke does not stay closed until the car warms pup and instead open up immediately.

Thanks for any help

 

[JhwShark]

The clicking may be the starter relay, if it clicks when and only when you move switch to final start position not just ON. If this is so the switch is probably good. I do not remeber the current flow from switch to starter soleniod. But it starts when you jump solenoid post to starter hot (post from Batery usually with another lead to Centeral electrics; always hot ~ 12.7v in OFF)??

I have not dealt with the dual carb issue...however I believe you have electonic choke on those so try pulling the unit off and cleaning the tip, also you could cross them with some voltage and see if they are good, though be careful to confirm if there is less than 12v going there. IN fact before pulling the unit pull the lead and check to see the voltage at start and when warm. may save pulling them. There may be dirty contacts on the trace route. I am not sure where the leads originate. If I knew it may help the diagnosis. If you have mannual chokes just adjust them I guess.

I'll see if the repair manual has anything. Next time I'm in the garage.
Jon

 

[jmackro]

Starting: I can start the car with a remote starter. When I remove the remote starter and reconnect the wires the car will not start. The only sound I hear is a "clicking" by the steering column under the left side dash. There are two wires to be connected to the starter ( other than the positive "hot" wire. There is a black/red wire and a second wire , black. There are 3 prongs on the starter (bosch) to which these two wires can be connected. I have tried all possible connections and still nothing other than the clicking sound. I have also tried to wiggle the started switch wires as I turn the key still nothing. It's obviously not he starter as the car will start with the remote. Any ideas or suggestions? I would like to hot wire the starer switch but don't know which wire need to be connected. If I can start the car this way then I'll know it's something internal in the starter switch.

If I understand you correctly, when attempting to start the car with the key, the starter doesn't even turn - you just get that clicking. Right? Might the fact that your car is an automatic have any bearing? Might the neutral safety switch be the culprit?

If you don't have a wiring diagram, you may want to get one.

 

[Tundra]

This is correct. When I turn the key the only sound is the clicking by the steering wheel. Starter does not turn. Satrter works as I can start the car with a remote. How would I check if it's the neutral safety switch?.

 

[Arde]

On an automatic you have an external starter relay which is probably the click you hear. The click means that the neutral safety switch is OK (the ground for the starter relay goes through the gear selection switch).

This means that the starter relay is probably bad (clicks but the 12V contact is broken). You can confirm this at the diagnostic plug (pin 7) which should have the 12V that goes to the starter.

I plea the fifth on carburetor questions.

 

[oldcoupe]

If I have a low battery, the solenoid clicks furiously, probably because as it makes contact and puts the starter into the circuit, the voltage falls enough for the solenoid to no longer operate. The disconnection restores the voltage and the solenoid operates again etc etc.

Therefore I'd suspect a problem with voltage. If the starter operates with the remote starter switch, then I'd check whether the supply to the solenoid via the ignition key switch and relay have a problem. I'd begin by checking connections to and from the relay all they way through to the solenoid's terminal.

 

[MMercury]

Starting Issues

I have a 72 with AT and Zenith carburetors. here is a description of two problems I have.

Starting: I can start the car with a remote starter. When I remove the remote starter and reconnect the wires the car will not start. I have tried to wiggle the started switch wires as I turn the key still nothing. I would like to hot wire the starer switch but don't know which wire need to be connected. If I can start the car this way then I'll know it's something internal in the starter switch.

A few things come to mind regarding your starting issue. I have not dealt with an E9 or E3 automatic in years so, my thoughts are a bit fuzzy.

Since your remote starter works, seems logical that you are bypassing something that is not working. This can include loose or poor connections and I agree with your inclination toward the ignition switch. The switch is notorious for loosening up leading to intermittent contacts. Before doing much more, you might try removing the switch, a tiny grub screw holds it in place. (Search archives). You may likely find the switch backing plate is loose and can be made workable again if you recrimp things. You can turn the switch with a flat head screwdriver and try to engage the starter. If you get a momentary blip, the answer should be the switch.

I am uncomfortable suggesting this. No warranties. From memory, if you merely want to engage the starter, “I have heard” some folks connect a push button between the red wire (terminal 30) and black wire (terminal 50) to work around a bad switch. I am not advising this, but hypothetically, “touching” those two wires ought to indicate if the switch is the culprit. Perhaps others may chime in considering my thoughts are fuzzy.

A neutral starting safety switch could be bad, loose, have loose wiring contacts OR your transmission gear selector rod may be out of adjustment therein affecting the switch’s functioning. But without knowing how you rigged your remote starter, it is unclear to me that the NSS-Switch is a primary suspect. With a disconnected, broken, or disengaged NSS-Switch I would expect you might not hear any clicking.

Good luck

 

[Tundra]

Where is the Neutral Safety Switch located? A picture or description would also help. I have both the Haynes manual and the blue books and did not see a reference to this switch in either.

 

[JhwShark]

The clicking may be the starter relay, if it clicks when and only when you move switch to final start position not just ON. If this is so the switch is probably good. I do not remeber the current flow from switch to starter soleniod. But it starts when you jump solenoid post to starter hot (post from Batery usually with another lead to Centeral electrics; always hot ~ 12.7v in OFF)??

I have not dealt with the dual carb issue...however I believe you have electonic choke on those so try pulling the unit off and cleaning the tip, also you could cross them with some voltage and see if they are good, though be careful to confirm if there is less than 12v going there. IN fact before pulling the unit pull the lead and check to see the voltage at start and when warm. may save pulling them. There may be dirty contacts on the trace route. I am not sure where the leads originate. If I knew it may help the diagnosis. If you have mannual chokes just adjust them I guess.

I'll see if the repair manual has anything. Next time I'm in the garage.
Jon

Andre, You mention you have a Haynes manual, so...use the wiring diagram pg166-9 and verify the wiring you have taken on and off. pg167 #49 is starter relay. I believe it is under the dash and the black lead goes to that, then on to the ig Start. On pg166 #29 is starter black and red lead goes to pin 15 on coil #27; make sure these leads are in correct position; pin 15 at coil is only hot when system is on. the other lead on coil p15 goes to the big resistor then on to the ig switch ON position.
Also, make sure you have the inbound Black Bat lead and the outbound Red Regulator lead attached to the Hot Starter pos; these leads are bigger than the other two leads mentioned. I believe the Starter Relay acts as the Neutral saftey switch through the brown and black wire to pin 31b of the Auto Trans switch # 42 pg166. Check all wires and connections and clean contacts and grounds as well while you are at it.

Use the AUto choke adjustment procedures for the carbs from Haynes.

But I have not heard from you...the before "state" of the starter system, any actions you took on the rig, that lead to current problem "state"...knowing this may help us help you get you to satisfactory future "state" - IT"S ALIVE!

 

[Arde]

Where is the Neutral Safety Switch located? A picture or description would also help. I have both the Haynes manual and the blue books and did not see a reference to this switch in either.

That function seems to be done by the selector switch itself on the transmission.
There is a linkage to that switch that if it has too much play you would see the gear indicator showing you are not in gear or in the wrong gear (that is the PROA21 display above your steering column).

If you still want to check it electrically the switch connects via a plug shown in
http://www.cscoupe.org/tech/autobooks/chapter7/autobooks_manual_080.htm

but I insist that the easiest way to check it is at the starter relay by making sure you get a ground when in Park or Neutral but not otherwise. I also believe that if that relay clicks the transmission switch is OK. (looks like the relay pin number is 85 for its ground). I would try replacing that relay and have a beer ready for either outcome.

 

[MMercury]

Where is the Neutral Safety Switch located? A picture or description would also help. I have both the Haynes manual and the blue books and did not see a reference to this switch in either.

Since you mentioned the shop manual, it does cover the switch. Try Section "61" entitled Chassis -Electrical.

61 31 260 “Transmission Switch - removing and installing” bottom of page: "61-31/6."

If you are missing these pages, just follow the shift linkage to where it couples with the transmission and it should be obvious. The electrical connection/wires should be a dead give away. The switch is an integral part of lighting up the gear selection lights above your steering column.

If you have some bizarre automatic trans transplant, all bets are off and you should still follow the wiring. Some autos have switches bolted to the transmission housing where they can be engaged by internally housed linkage.

I have not confirmed this but switch is probably part number 61311359541 and it should looks something like this:

 

[Tundra]

Thank you so very much for all your help. That is a lot of info to follow up on and test- all extremely helpful-. I will continue my hunt tomorrow and post my results here so that hopefully it can help someone else down the road. I'll try to post some observations this evening. Thanks again,

Andre

 

[Tundra]

update

I finally gave up on trying to solve the Zenith carburetor issue. I simply installed webers shown below and the car runs fine. I still need to adjust the timing somewhat.

However, I still wasn't able to solve the starting issue. That is, I can start the car only by using a remote switch. The remote switch has two wires, one is connected to the positive terminal of the starter (red wire in the picture below) and the other to a ground wire, the black wire connected to the starter in the picture. I need to turn the key to the on position and then start with the remote. As ou can see in the picture, there is a black/red wire that is not connected. When I connect this wire to the positive on the starter, red wire, then the ignition and oil lights turn on as it would if the key was in the ignition and turned to 'on' although the key is not even in. Obviously this black/red wire needs to be connected to the starter somwhere. I have tried to connect this black/red wire and the black wire to the starter in various combinations. Other than the positive wire these two are the only wires near the starter. Can someone tell me where these two wires need to be connected on the starter? I should add that the lights indicating which position the car is in all work correctly as I change from park to rear to "A" etc.Before I can test anyhing else I need to know with certainty where these two wires go. Thanks for any help.

 

[jranmann]

If I have a low battery, the solenoid clicks furiously, probably because as it makes contact and puts the starter into the circuit, the voltage falls enough for the solenoid to no longer operate. The disconnection restores the voltage and the solenoid operates again etc etc.

Therefore I'd suspect a problem with voltage. If the starter operates with the remote starter switch, then I'd check whether the supply to the solenoid via the ignition key switch and relay have a problem. I'd begin by checking connections to and from the relay all they way through to the solenoid's terminal.

I tend to agree with oldy here...but it's hard to tell not being right there...
Any wiring the age of ours is always suspect ... the trouble is that by probing this wiring one actually can do damage where there was none before....

It's very possible that by using remote starter switch you are temporarily shunting/bypassing a developing problem engine harness and hence current from the battery now again flows with enough EMF (Voltage) to turn the starter instead of activatiing the relay (the clicking you are hearing)

jumping the problem area along the path (battery/ignition/fusebox/relays) to starter when using the switch which apparently you have been using to start the car for some time?


Cneers!

Ran

 

[Tundra]

I understand and will do some checking but I still need to know what the correct connection of the wires to the starter are. That is, where does the red/black wire get connected and where does the black wire get connected. The electrical diagrams do not help. If I'm reading it correctly, the black/red wire is connected to the positive on the starter along with the red wire from the battery but as I sated, when I do this then the ignition & oil lights turn on along with a clicking sound from I believe the relay although the key is not even in the car. This is obviously wrong.Before I can diagnose anything I clearly need to have those wires hooked up correctly. So, if someone with an automatic can tell me how their wires are connected it would be appreciated

 

[jranmann]

What we are explaining is that one or more of those wires that appear to be continuous are likely broken somewhere and it's possible that the wiring is correct visually but not conducting electrons within the plastic insulation, at least not all the time apparently.

Get a Volt Ohm meter and one at a time, test each connection between the battery, ignition switch and the starter. This would be on the positive side of a negatively grounded system so it's likely that the negative side is simply gounded to the chassis...right...check these grounds for continuity....although main ground connection was likely not circumvented via the remote switch wiring IIRC...if you wish draw a diagram of the wiring you have then we can take a look... and at least see what you see now...or find an automotive electrical specialist and call the AAA.

You CAN figure this out Andre...keep a level head and give us enough info. to help you...diagrams are hard to come by and myself I do not have the BLUE BMW manual handy here at my vacation home...somebody may but then again you won't really learn anything from the experience if you let someone do it for you...belive me there's gold in that experience as these cars are old and you likely will have this trouble again, just somewhere else on the car...

Be open minded and the solution will become painfully obvious!
or: "Trust the force, Luke"

Could happen?

Ran

 

[Arde]

As ou can see in the picture, there is a black/red wire that is not connected. When I connect this wire to the positive on the starter, red wire, then the ignition and oil lights turn on as it would if the key was in the ignition and turned to 'on' although the key is not even in. Obviously this black/red wire needs to be connected to the starter somwhere. I have tried to connect this black/red wire and the black wire to the starter in various combinations. Other than the positive wire these two are the only wires near the starter. Can someone tell me where these two wires need to be connected on the starter?

I think you are almost there.

The black-red should be the thinnest of the wires connecting to the starter. It goes to the coil and it seems to take 12V during start to the coil, bypassing the coil resistor. (If you short this wire to the red wire then the lights come on as they should because you are energizing them through the resistor as if you had the switch in the ON position).

There is a black wire that feeds the starter relay and should be twice as thick as the black-red but much thinner than the red wire from the battery.

Short story, the black-red wire has no effect on the starter engaging. Leave it hanging for now. You have only two possibilities for connecting the black wire. If you hear a click when you turn the key, then you have it right. And finally if you hear a click but the starter does not move, either the starter relay is bad, or like others said there is too much resistance on the black wire or ground paths. These conditions are trivial to test, try that and call me in the morning...

 

[Tundra]

Udate: success, starter/ignition problem solved

This is a somewhat lenghty post. If you do not have a starter/ignition problem and know you never will then you may want to skip this post and go to the next one. If you are having this problem or fear it may happen to you then you may/may not find this post to be informative and hopefully helpful.

I was finally able to resolve my starting problem. When I started the car with my remote starter I would hear a click from the relay below. I could also 'feel' the click whenever I attempted to start the car. I assumed this was the starter relay ( yes I know what assume spells out when you break out the word). This relay is located under the driver side dash, all the way to the left of the fuse box and next to a large black relay. Since it was clicking, I assumed it was in working condition. I then looked at the wires at the ignition switch. There are 5 wires, black , red, green, purple and grey.

What I assumed was the starter relay. Is it? If not then what is it?

I followed the advice of those who replied to my post and followed the wires. The only wires I was concerned with were the black wire and the red wire at the switch. Using a test lamp, I determined the red wire was getting power ( at the switch) I also determined that the black wire was "dead". I know that by bridging the black and red wires at the switch it would engage the starter but nothing happened when I did this.I then followed the wires from the ignition switch. The red, green and purple are connected to the fuse box. The grey one is connected to a plug under the steering column and the black one dissapeared behind the fuse box. I unscrewed the fuse box to see where the black wire went. It is connected to a plug (picture below. It is the thick black wire at the top left. It's then connected to a smaller black wire ( right).

This smaller black wire dissapeared into the engine bay at the right( when sitting in the car )of the steering column. Following this black wire I saw that it connected to a relay that is bolted on the firewal, (picture below).

Is this the starter relay? The red spots is not rust, it's my blood


Using a test lamp I determined that the red wire at the relay was ok but, the black wire was 'dead' . I unpluged this relay and plugged in a spare relay ( horn relay I believe). The car started right up. The two relays are different. The non working relay has a marking of 91/6-14 whereas the relay I used has a marking of 91/6-20. Maybe someone can tel me if using this relay is a real problem and why. The one thing I noticed is that the oil light stays on when the engine runs whereas when I used the remote (and the bad relay) the ignition and oil lights would turn off once the engine started. That's a small problem that I hope I will resolve.

Lessons learned: never leave home without a spare relay and without a remote starter. It may just get you home if you ever have a starting issue.

Many thanks to all those who provided advice and suggestions.

 

[JhwShark]

Andre,
Great detail in photos.

Hella relay is usually for lights.

From the e9 schematic (http://www.e9-driven.com/Wiring_Diagram.pdf):

Black wire is from ig switch to starter post, you will have a lower gage black wire from same starter post to batt.
Red goes to fuse cluster fuse 4, batt is also in this circut but fused for electronics it is un-switched HOT.
Violet (purple) is to last fuse, usually for radio and auxilliary supply
Green is to fusebox for switched power.
Grey ?? it may be to key buzzer??
You should have a brown/green wire that goes to key buzzer then to doorswitch for courtesy light.
Black/red wire at starter should go from starter male to +side of coil male

I believe pin 9 crossing with pin 7 of the program tester connector can be used as a remote starter.

Use the diagram to understand what is right or modified so you keep control over the volts.

Jon

 

[MMercury]

What I assumed was the starter relay. Is it? If not then what is it?

This smaller black wire dissappeared into the engine bay at the right( when sitting in the car )of the steering column. Following this black wire I saw that it connected to a relay that is bolted on the firewal, (picture below).

Is this the starter relay? The red spots is not rust, it's my blood

Nice job! Nice writeup too. What blood type is that and is it available on Ebay at a buy it now price?

I think your first picture depicts the starter relay. No. 10 upside down? See: PN 61319059177.

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=7022&mospid=47806&btnr=61_1156&hg=61&fg=25&hl=13

I am not sure about the round Hella relay though. From your sleuthing, it obviously affects your ignition/starting system. As I am not close to another E9, I can’t say whether I have a similar relay on my firewall. I would have expected you could easily cross reference the other blood-covered numbers, although there might be a diagram printed on it so you could substitute another that will make all other lights function properly. I found a similar round relay with barely legible numbers: 4RA 002 56_-03. It may be from a VW or BMW?. Your relay looks like 4RA 001 848-09? I have a few others with completely worn off markings. A quick search found several Hella sites but none of them that I found list the 4RA 001 or 002 series. They do list the 003 and 004, etc. Catalogs of the day probably have this. Mine are long gone.

If you look at the realoem link above, there are two other generically described relays that may fit the bill: PN 61368373700 "make contact green" 5-prong and 61361378238 "make contact orange" 4-prong.


I am using a very small screen so I cannot follow the diagram posted by the Shark. For what its worth, in diagram “61-0/48" (from the shop manual) covering cs models “from 1973 on” relay no. 91 is listed as “Starter relay (automatic only).” I have no idea how to interpret this as even with a magnifying glass, I can’t make out the symbol on my copy of the diagram. Though the title of this diagram post dates your model, I wonder if your relay was an automatic only feature for earlier models too.

It is probably only a mystery to me, but if you find out what this Hella relay is supposed to control, please post. :wink:

Bona fortuna!