The magic world of CSL VIN series

[CSL 1973]

Arde,

I fully agree with you - it totally depends on when the VIN was assigned to the chassi. Very good point, there. One thing is sure, the CSLs left factory with matching numbers.

I can add that the VIN-stamp on the torpedo-wall should be with a "+" sign before and after the VIN. Furthermore, the VIN on this location should be surrounded by an unpainted rectangle-sized area.

I think BMW simply used a bit of scotch/tape to cover this part when the chassis were sprayed.

Not so many CSL has still this detail left/untouched. Most cars, when they are re-prayed, has got the VIN (on the torpedo-wall) also resprayed.


Cheers
Henric

 

[wsk]

and as for the VINs of the racing CSLs...

the story is equally interesting:
- The CSL was homologated for group 2 racing at the end of 1972, but numerous "CSLs" were in fact based on 2800 or 3.0 CS cars such as the Graziano Cancian car, VIN 2210270.
- Some were built from series 1 CSLs, e.g. the "Gösser Beer" Faltz Alpina, VIN 2211365.
- The BMW werks motorsport cars had VINs from the series 2 CSL range 2275979 – 2276000 (e.g. 2275997 was the Quester/Hezemans LeMans winner).
However they were built from shells, not production cars. Some of these shells also went to outside teams, e.g. the Schnitzer Memphis car, VIN 2275982.
Other important racing CSLs were also built from shells, with arbitrary VINs assigned to them:
- The Luigi "UFO" cars had VINs of "77-003" and "77-004".
- The last Renngemeinschaft Martini CSL, from a well-known Nürburgring-based team, had a VIN of "001/79" (this car is of special interest to me).

 

[CSL 1973]

Why did the CSL Bat production end at 2275539

I recently came across a pretty relevant question; why did BMW end the CSL Bat production at exactly the odd VIN 2275539 and then continued with a batch of another 57 Bats from another VIN range?

The answer cld be that BMW needed to built 100 cars for the face-lift + engine upgrade homologation/evoluation in 1973. If I recall correctly, there were 71 unsold CSLs, starting at 2275430, in stock. These cars were converted with the upgrades. BMW then built another 39 cars with these new specs.

All in all, 110 Bats - from that VIN range - with the new upgrades were built. The 10 extra Bats cld be explained by some safety margins. Later on, there were material and demand for another 57 Bats. This last Batch was assigned with the completely other VIN range 4355001-4355057.

Cheers
Henric

 

[roundel]

CSL production

It is interesting to know how the process of building the cars went, and at what point the Karman number was added in relation to the chassis number. As I understand some Porsches were built by Karman, and I wonder if the answer might be be there, As Porsches seem to have been documented more seriously from an earlier point. They too have a build number seperate from the chassis number.
Does anyone know at what point BMW started producing RHD E9`s. I think in the early days of the 3,0 litres ?

 

[CSL 1973]

Hi Alex,

The very first trace of a RHD E9 is from October 1970. In the price list from BMW UK (BMW Concessionaires G.B. Ltd, Victoria Road, Portslade, Sussex), they offer a 2800 CS for the UK market.

However, what they offer is the 2800 CS LHD version with an optional conversion to RHD (350 GBP + tax).

As regards the RHD CSL, the production started in October 1972. Speaking about RHD CSL, there was an interesting Verona for sale in 1985. The seller was Donald Savage Cars and the car was announced as with "full length sun roof". Any memories of that car?

Cheers

Henric

 

[derin100]

Hi,
I'd just like to ask a couple of questions following on from this thread.
There's a CSL I'm potentially interested in buying here in the U.K. But I want to check that it really IS a CSL in the first instance.
I've only seen pics of it so far but already noticed it has a full length sunroof...I wasn't aware any CSLs had that?
Secondly, where is the VIN actually located on the body?

Many thanks in advance.

 

[RonP]

I only know of one CSL that had a fixed steel sunroof. The best way to tell if it's real is the v.I.n. Which is located in two places. The first is riveted to the body in the engine compartment. The other is stamped on the upper part of the firewall and faces the front wind screen.

 

[derin100]

Thanks Ron,
I'll try to get the VIN from the seller but I'm really beginning to have suspicions about the car.
I'll feedback if I get a VIN.
Thanks again!

 

[30csl]

Hi Derin, I'm in the UK - London. I will look at the car with you if you like. There are rhd csls with sunroofs but when you say full length do you mean webasto style? I remember a Verona car with that. Reg was 564 MAL or something like that.

Rohan

 

[derin100]

Hi Rohan

Many thanks for the contact and kind offer.

I've just had a reply back on the VIN. Apparently it's: 2285223

But when I put that VIN into RealOem it doesn't recognise that number.

Yes, the sunroof looks like it's a Webasto type.

The car itself is in a partial state of restoration (and has been for sale for a long time). I wonder if you know it?

4th car down on the right in this link:

http://www.finleyscars.co.uk/stocklist.htm

I have some background info on the car from the dealer selling it but obviously as mych as possible would be useful.
Many thanks again
Derin

 

[wsk]

2285223 is a valid VIN for a RHD CSL (2285001 to 2285500). These were all series 2 cars (3003 D-jet) and I believe all were city pack.

 

[derin100]

2285223 is a valid VIN for a RHD CSL (2285001 to 2285500). These were all series 2 cars (3003 D-jet) and I believe all were city pack.

Many thanks indeed!

 

[CSL 1973]

Hi Derin,

As Rohan wrote there are some few RHD CSLs with sunroof. Everything from Webasto-style to "Skyport". Actually, there is at least one with BMW sunroof - the famous Victor Gauntlett CSL. This particular CSL was ordered new from factory with BMW Sunroof and CSi -style leather seats. As a former chairman of Aston Martin, Gauntlett was seen as a VIP in the UK at the time. This might have helped him to place one of the first individual orders as regards a CSL car.

There are three LHD CSLs known with BMW sunroof. At least one of them has a black CSL headliner, specially made for sunroof and without any type of interior light.

As regards, the Chamonix 2285223, I don't think this CSL has a sunroof. At the pics I have of the car (before the resto), there are no signs of a sunroof.

You will not find any VINs for the early CSLs in the BMW VIN Decoder. Only, the last Bat serie II (4355001-4355057) is listed.

Cheers

Henric

 

[derin100]

Hi Derin,

As Rohan wrote there are some few RHD CSLs with sunroof. Everything from Webasto-style to "Skyport". Actually, there is at least one with BMW sunroof - the famous Victor Gauntlett CSL. This particular CSL was ordered new from factory with BMW Sunroof and CSi -style leather seats. As a former chairman of Aston Martin, Gauntlett was seen as a VIP in the UK at the time. This might have helped him to place one of the first individual orders as regards a CSL car.

There are three LHD CSLs known with BMW sunroof. At least one of them has a black CSL headliner, specially made for sunroof and without any type of interior light.

As regards, the Chamonix 2285223, I don't think this CSL has a sunroof. At the pics I have of the car (before the resto), there are no signs of a sunroof.

You will not find any VINs for the early CSLs in the BMW VIN Decoder. Only, the last Bat serie II (4355001-4355057) is listed.

Cheers

Henric

Hi Henric

What you have said is very interesting indeed!
Actually, it makes me even more suspicious that the car in question is a 'fake'!
The reason for this is that the selling dealer is telling me this car was originally Fjord Blue (and sent me pics of it in this colour!)...and not the Chamonix that it's now painted in! They sent me pics to that effect.

Can I pm you with some other pics or email you?

Also when I questioned them about the VIN number the number they gave me was from the paperwork. I asked if they could read off from both the plate in the engine-bay and also that stamped into the bodywork near the front screen. He said he couldn't lift the bonnet because it's not fixed in place at the moment and would require the assistance of another person. When I asked about the other location he said that he couldn't see/find it and that it "looked like all new metal had been put into that location"! What a surprise!

Regarding the engine, they told me that: "Due to a problem with the original 3.0L engine block, it's had a 2.8L block (bored out to 3.0L) fitted! This would of course allow someone to get round the obvious descrepancy of the wrong number on the engine as well!

I'm even more convinced that this another, non-CSL E9 (complete with Webasto sunroof!) that has had CSL parts transplanted on to it (presumably from 2285223)and they've now painted it in 2285223's colour and is now being sold as a "genuine" CSL?

Derin

 

[rsporsche]

Interior lights

There seem to be quite a bit of confusion about the CSL interior light set up, so here is the rule:
early carbs, rallye light in the glove box, no light in the headliner
late carbs, rallye light on the dash, no light in the headliner
2275 series, rallye light on the dash, no light in the headliner
2275 series with citypack and 2285 series, no rallye light, headliner light on the DRIVER´S side
4355 series, no rallye light, headliner light on the driver´s side (left)

If your car has a different set up, it has been modified at some point.

Gerrit

i know this is a post from long ago @Gerrit ... but i know of a 2275 true lightweight that has NO rallye light on dash, but does have light in headliner. this CSL has aluminum doors, hood + trunk - no front bumper / fiberglass rear bumper ... and i think the plexi rear windows.

i am trying to put together a document for the FAQ consolidating the differences between the 6 different versions of the CSL - carb, 2275 lightweight, 2275 city pack, bat 1, bat 2 and RHD ... so i am reading through all of the old CSL posts and taking notes ... comparing to photographs i have of known cars. i am very curious about this as several people i know and talk to reference you as one of THE people who know more about the correctness within CSL than almost anybody.

 

[Gerrit]

When something about a car does not quite fit in, then it is time to take out the magnifying glass and do some detective work. The first place to look for an answer is the VIN and where the car was originally delivered. This will give you the first clues about the equipment that should be installed. If that still does not help, then you have to physically inspect the car. Every car is like a book with a story to tell, it is just a question of being able to read it.

 

[roundel]

When something about a car does not quite fit in, then it is time to take out the magnifying glass and do some detective work. The first place to look for an answer is the VIN and where the car was originally delivered. This will give you the first clues about the equipment that should be installed. If that still does not help, then you have to physically inspect the car. Every car is like a book with a story to tell, it is just a question of being able to read it.

Thats a very good way to describe it Gerrit......there are many way to find out what a car `was` rather than what it `is`. Fortunately I think most fakers are new to these cars and are unaware of these things........which make it almost impossible to pass off a CS as a CSL to someone who does know. But they still try..!!

 

[rsporsche]

the car was first delivered in Italy and imported into Houston, TX in the mid 80's. i looked at this car at that time when it was for sale from the importer - it had a dome light at that time, and i don't remember a rallye light. it had the perspex rear fixed glass, the lightweight carpet, the airdam. has been owned by the same person for last 30 years. this is a 2275 car within the first 50 made.

 

[E911]

As a point of reference - My early lightweight has no dome light and no map light on the dash... the map light is mounted in the the glove box and no holes on the dash indicating it was moved.

 

[rsporsche]

As a point of reference - My early lightweight has no dome light and no map light on the dash... the map light is mounted in the the glove box and no holes on the dash indicating it was moved.

so according to the vin above, you have a carb csl - so this fits in Gerrit's description. this is good confirmation, thank you.