Hopefully he'll eventually deliver. Frustrating when there are delays. Is he making frames too?
Ian
What would you pay for a pair of high quality reproduction tail light frame/lens
- Thread starter JFENG
- Start date
Hopefully he'll eventually deliver. Frustrating when there are delays. Is he making frames too?
Ian
nope, just the lenses ... i saw the first samples and tried to fit them into a perfect frame. the quality of the outer face of the lens was fantastic ... getting them into the frame was another story. i am hopeful that the new ones will be worth the wait
MPowerE9
Active Member
rsporsche (or Stan),
I'm curious about your progress with the tail light lens. Any update?
I'm curious about your progress with the tail light lens. Any update?
correct address would be to Stan ...
I've got another update on a parallel track.
The guy I spoke with about getting a complete repro assembly called me today and we had a long chat about this parts problem. He made the following points
(1) The mfg he is dealing with is in Europe, and is the source of repro parts for the OEM's, including Mercedes (e.g. the Mercedes Classic Center factory restoration service in Germany and Irvine, CA). I am not sure how to confirm this because he won't give me the mfg's name. Maybe one of you guys in OC can swing by and see if Merc CC is using plastic tail light assemblies on Pagoda's and 190SL's.
(2) Most tail light assemblies are now being done in chromed plastic to keep the cost down. The price diff between plastic and real metal was something like 2x. He mentioned that even for cars like the Mercedes W113 series, the repro pieces are now chromed plastic. Funny, then we joked about old Alfa's and he agreed that it would be emotionally painful to put a plastic tail light assembly on an old 1900CSS or Giulietta Speciale.
(3) The mfg would be happy to make the entire assembly (including bulb holder, gasket, etc), and feels this is safer than making just the lens/frame because it ensures a better mating/fit. But we could have it one way or the other.
(4) Minimum order was 100 sets, but I would say 50 sets is enough. Why? Because the parts seller admitted that after we inquired ... the mfg in Europe realized that BMW was NLA on tail lights and there was a growing market for repro parts.
(5) Price: he said somewhere between $250 and $600 a side for a complete assembly (lens, frame, bulb holder), and we had to submit a complete sample before we could get a firm quote.
So .... I'd be interested to know how may of you could deal with a chromed plastic repro part. If enough say "yes" then either Stan or I will ship a complete tail light (L or R) to Europe to get it quoted.
John Feng
dj_efk
Well-Known Member
If the parts are indistinguishable from the original to the naked eye when installed, I am 110% IN!
This should wipe the smirk off the face of the guy in Aus selling rear lamps at USD $1000 for a used set!
This should wipe the smirk off the face of the guy in Aus selling rear lamps at USD $1000 for a used set!
John,
If they look exactly as original, I could live with plastic ones. I'm mainly interested in just lenses/frames as my bulbholders are in good shape, and to keep cost down.
But if the price would stay in the lower range of the estimate for a complete assembly I wouldn't hesitate to buy that.
Cheers,
If they look exactly as original, I could live with plastic ones. I'm mainly interested in just lenses/frames as my bulbholders are in good shape, and to keep cost down.
But if the price would stay in the lower range of the estimate for a complete assembly I wouldn't hesitate to buy that.
Cheers,
Ok,
Let's see how Stan's lenses work out, as that's still likely to be the cheapest.
Figure you can get old frames rechromed for $250 a side, and the lenses hopefully aren't more than $100 or so.
John
Let's see how Stan's lenses work out, as that's still likely to be the cheapest.
Figure you can get old frames rechromed for $250 a side, and the lenses hopefully aren't more than $100 or so.
John
I would go for a set as long as we could not tell visually from what an original looked like.
After all we are not driving these cars everyday.
Even if BMW was making new I bet they would be $500+ each.
Thanks for your efforts.
Gary
After all we are not driving these cars everyday.
Even if BMW was making new I bet they would be $500+ each.
Thanks for your efforts.
Gary
Hella of a deal
I don't know if this has been addressed previously, but these tail lights, at least the lenses, were made by Hella, not BMW. Hella does make replacement lenses for some cars as old as the '80s. The term they use is 'Hella factory Replacement Tail Lights'.
Has anyone asked Hella if they are able to use the original molds and simply make more of these lenses now that BWM has run out? I realize that Hella is quite a large corporation now and perhaps they have discarded that part of the past they consider nonprofitable, but it might still be possible they could make more.
And if they are the makers of the frames as well, that would be superb. However, getting more of them seems quite unlikely since I don't think any car maker is using Zinc frames anymore and that would make starting up the machinery unlikely.
I'm willing to look into this, as it would be hard to beat OEM lenses for our cars.
Ian
1970 2800CS 'Ottokar' Chamonix over blue
I don't know if this has been addressed previously, but these tail lights, at least the lenses, were made by Hella, not BMW. Hella does make replacement lenses for some cars as old as the '80s. The term they use is 'Hella factory Replacement Tail Lights'.
Has anyone asked Hella if they are able to use the original molds and simply make more of these lenses now that BWM has run out? I realize that Hella is quite a large corporation now and perhaps they have discarded that part of the past they consider nonprofitable, but it might still be possible they could make more.
And if they are the makers of the frames as well, that would be superb. However, getting more of them seems quite unlikely since I don't think any car maker is using Zinc frames anymore and that would make starting up the machinery unlikely.
I'm willing to look into this, as it would be hard to beat OEM lenses for our cars.
Ian
1970 2800CS 'Ottokar' Chamonix over blue
Ian,
Reach out to Hella. We may all be surprised
Reach out to Hella. We may all be surprised
You know I was thinking of Hella when we were talking about pricing. In the late 90's they were selling colored tails for the MKII golf, and they are around $300 a set. They were the exact same quality as their factory originals. I was thinking about this from a "$500 sounds fair perspective", not from a "give them a ring" view point. I can't think of an organization more equipped to produce some fine lenses!
No Response
I've not gotten any response back from my emails to Hella concerning remaking the E9 tail light lenses. I'll try some of the European locations as I had confined my initial emails to the US locations.
Ian
I've not gotten any response back from my emails to Hella concerning remaking the E9 tail light lenses. I'll try some of the European locations as I had confined my initial emails to the US locations.
Ian
MPowerE9
Active Member
If you do not get any replies from Hella, here is the path that I was planning to pursue a couple months ago.
I've exchanged emails with the following two companies in trying to make reproduction lens for the tailight. Both companies were open in making these for the E9 but would need lenses to make the mold for them. The prices that they initially quote was quite reasonable.
I haven't had time to make much progress on this, but I'm more than happy to share these sources in case someone wants to push it along or start a group purchase for a small batch run.
https://www.facebook.com/dkmoulds/ (Dan Hebert)
http://www.klearz.com/ (Tina)
I've exchanged emails with the following two companies in trying to make reproduction lens for the tailight. Both companies were open in making these for the E9 but would need lenses to make the mold for them. The prices that they initially quote was quite reasonable.
I haven't had time to make much progress on this, but I'm more than happy to share these sources in case someone wants to push it along or start a group purchase for a small batch run.
https://www.facebook.com/dkmoulds/ (Dan Hebert)
http://www.klearz.com/ (Tina)
Taillights-
I have attended quite a few concours events over the years as a spectator.
Neither of my cars is concours quality. The M5 is close.
With that said I have met some of the guys from BMW Group Classic.
They have displays at the big shows like Amelia and Pebble Beach.
Bare with me as I tell a parts story that will lead to the taillights.
I ordered both front grills from my dealer in Atlanta for my coupe in Sept of 2012, knowing I was eventually going to rebuild the car.
I received the left grill 51131811483 in about 10 days in a dusty box that had been sitting somewhere for years.
The right grill 51131811484 was not delivered and was shown as no stock.
The order was not cancelled and was not listed as NLA.
Short version-- after about 6 months and meeting the Classic Group at Amelia in March 2013 and asking about grill I was told it was going to be made in the next 3-6 months. Now almost 4 years later still no grill.
I have been contacting them about every 4-6 months all those years. Same story every time.
So at Amelia last weekend I had a discussion with Georg Blumoser Head of Parts Sales BMW Group Classic.
First discussion was about the grills. There are about 180 on order.
That's why I have said before to make sure you have an order placed with you dealer and don't let them cancel it as this tells classic what the demand is.
Told there would be some made by end of 2016.
Now I decided to ask about the taillights. Many on this forum would like some and so would I.
No current plans to make any.
The problem seems to come from the EU certification process they would have to have and the expense involved in the process.
There was some language problems in his explanation of this and it was not tell later and help form Dirk that I fully understood what he meant.
This is a good explanation of what the process is and why.
http://www.danielsternlighting.com/tech/lights/codes/codes.html
Now my fault for not understanding so I was not able to ask the big question.
The lights were certified before so why can't you make more?
So if we had someone make taillights there could possibly be an issue with their legality. Not that anyone would check? Just saying......
As some of you know Porsche and Mercedes are out there with good support and parts supply for their classic owners.
I decided to look up a taillight for a 1972 911.
In about 10 minutes I found the fixture for $400 and there were different lenses for about $50 more.
There are some restorers currently having lots of problems with parts fitting correctly and also the quality of those parts. This is for the E9 and many other models most notably the E30 M3.
This is all I know so far.
There is a ground swell of disappointed customers that's for sure.
I know of at least 3 people had discussions with the Classic Group at Amelia.
Gary Beck
Atlanta
I have attended quite a few concours events over the years as a spectator.
Neither of my cars is concours quality. The M5 is close.
With that said I have met some of the guys from BMW Group Classic.
They have displays at the big shows like Amelia and Pebble Beach.
Bare with me as I tell a parts story that will lead to the taillights.
I ordered both front grills from my dealer in Atlanta for my coupe in Sept of 2012, knowing I was eventually going to rebuild the car.
I received the left grill 51131811483 in about 10 days in a dusty box that had been sitting somewhere for years.
The right grill 51131811484 was not delivered and was shown as no stock.
The order was not cancelled and was not listed as NLA.
Short version-- after about 6 months and meeting the Classic Group at Amelia in March 2013 and asking about grill I was told it was going to be made in the next 3-6 months. Now almost 4 years later still no grill.
I have been contacting them about every 4-6 months all those years. Same story every time.
So at Amelia last weekend I had a discussion with Georg Blumoser Head of Parts Sales BMW Group Classic.
First discussion was about the grills. There are about 180 on order.
That's why I have said before to make sure you have an order placed with you dealer and don't let them cancel it as this tells classic what the demand is.
Told there would be some made by end of 2016.
Now I decided to ask about the taillights. Many on this forum would like some and so would I.
No current plans to make any.
The problem seems to come from the EU certification process they would have to have and the expense involved in the process.
There was some language problems in his explanation of this and it was not tell later and help form Dirk that I fully understood what he meant.
This is a good explanation of what the process is and why.
http://www.danielsternlighting.com/tech/lights/codes/codes.html
Now my fault for not understanding so I was not able to ask the big question.
The lights were certified before so why can't you make more?
So if we had someone make taillights there could possibly be an issue with their legality. Not that anyone would check? Just saying......
As some of you know Porsche and Mercedes are out there with good support and parts supply for their classic owners.
I decided to look up a taillight for a 1972 911.
In about 10 minutes I found the fixture for $400 and there were different lenses for about $50 more.
There are some restorers currently having lots of problems with parts fitting correctly and also the quality of those parts. This is for the E9 and many other models most notably the E30 M3.
This is all I know so far.
There is a ground swell of disappointed customers that's for sure.
I know of at least 3 people had discussions with the Classic Group at Amelia.
Gary Beck
Atlanta
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Reproduction Update
Many of you who know me, know that I have been trying to get tail light lenses reproduced for close to 2 years. The first batch came back and looked beautiful with fine detail. They just did not quite fit...
The guy who will make them went back to the drawing board. I sent him s complete set of ratty tail lights in the frames, a set of frames and samples of lenses in very good condition.
Earlier this week he sent an email saying he has "cracked the code" and now has lenses that fit the frame and is mailing everything to me this week.
I will update and post pictures when I get them.
All good things come to he who waits?
Many of you who know me, know that I have been trying to get tail light lenses reproduced for close to 2 years. The first batch came back and looked beautiful with fine detail. They just did not quite fit...
The guy who will make them went back to the drawing board. I sent him s complete set of ratty tail lights in the frames, a set of frames and samples of lenses in very good condition.
Earlier this week he sent an email saying he has "cracked the code" and now has lenses that fit the frame and is mailing everything to me this week.
I will update and post pictures when I get them.
All good things come to he who waits?
MPowerE9
Active Member
WOOHOO! Way to go Stan!
great news Stan ... looking forward to seeing them and fixing my lights
cheers
scott
cheers
scott
Let us know when it's time to order 