Which cherry wood used for 1973 CS dashboard?

[12doplumbing]

Solid wood vs veneer

Pioneer? Oh shi_; that worries me. I don't know if I can find the determination if nobody else has done it.
Anyone out there see a problem? I mean, same concept as your home's hardwood floors or furniture, right? Who the hell wants veneer when you can get solid wood? You can refinish with ease, spot repair / sand, and just knowing your wife's ridiculous rock isn't going to rip through it accidentally should be enough.
Ok, I found the confidence.
I'll blog it - hopefully I'll learn how to upload more than one picture by then (learning how to blog might take longer than creating the solid wood trim).

 

[jmackro]

Anyone out there see a problem? I mean, same concept as your home's hardwood floors or furniture, right?

I don't know enough about woodworking to tell you if using solid wood is practical or impractical. Two issues I can think of:

- The shapes - particularly of the dash components - are pretty complex. The wood is bent, the edges are curved. Would you start with flat wood and steam it curved? Or just carve the complex shapes out of solid pieces?

- Would solid wood be more susceptible to warpage and/or splitting when exposed to Windsor's wet winters and dry summers?

 

[12doplumbing]

Choosing the stock of wood would be primary concern in making that tight radius on the passenger side dash look good; wouldn't want the look of cutting into an onion, if you follow. That's the only difficult bend/piece. The rest are sanding chores, after hole-sawing, etc.. I think a burl-wood selection - large enough to create all matching pieces, and even for gear shifter and other additional items, will be my first hunt.
I would gladly pay up to $350 for a set needing refinishing -- because I want to start this project but don't want to park my 3.0 yet.
I'd consult a local woodworker friend on advice in sealing and finishing -- kiln drying prior to working? I don't know, but I'm big on considering opinions.

 

[adawil2002]

The dash is laminated plywood set up on a buck to make the curves. As long as the plywood under the veneer is good the veneer will bend easily to fit the dash shape.

Chris Robbins has the nicest wood on his La Jolla Independent built CSi.

 

[12doplumbing]

The dash is laminated plywood set up on a buck to make the curves. As long as the plywood under the veneer is good the veneer will bend easily to fit the dash shape.

Chris Robbins has the nicest wood on his La Jolla Independent built CSi.

Nicest, huh? I'm up to the challenge.
It's a big challenge; that's beautiful.

 

[jmackro]

Chris Robbins has the nicest wood on his La Jolla Independent built CSi.

Well, I'd challenge the use of the word "nicest" in the above sentence. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and while I respect that adawil2002 and Chris Robbins might like burled wood, I remain a purist.

The genius that designed the coupe chose French walnut, and I think they knew what they were doing. Perhaps it is appropriate for a Jag-you-are, but to my eye, burled wood just looks pretentious on an early BMW - too formal, too stuffy.

 

[JFENG]

Choosing the stock of wood would be primary concern in making that tight radius on the passenger side dash look good; wouldn't want the look of cutting into an onion, if you follow. (snip).

I know it's kind of nutty, but the E9 dash could be made of a solid piece of Fr Walnut, steam bent to the right contour. It would probably require a could extras for 1-2 trials before you get the bending form adjusted for spring-back.

Personally, I think quarter-sawn cherry or mahogany would look great. , but I agree with others that the low-key appearance of Fr. Walnut suits the somber German style of the interior really well. If I were more gutsy I'd do it in quarter sawn Wenge.

 

[Nachtycoupe]

The genius that designed the coupe chose French walnut, and I think they knew what they were doing. Perhaps it is appropriate for a Jag-you-are, but to my eye, burled wood just looks pretentious on an early BMW - too formal, too stuffy.

Well said Jay...........I agree 100%.....why mess with perfection and the way it was originally done.....??????????????

 

[12doplumbing]

Perfection?

Well said Jay...........I agree 100%.....why mess with perfection and the way it was originally done.....??????????????

Okay, come on! We're all in love with these early BMWs, but you've got to agree the thin veneer wood accents, the electric window technology, pathetic chromed plastic, etc., fall short of perfection.
I'm still in love with the little rocket ship I gave up to get my E9; the '99 MCoupe. That also fell far short of perfection when the rear differential broke completely from the body...
I'm going to have to google "Wenge", and I'm liking mahogany even more. Any thoughts on finding a dilapidated wood set? Post in classifieds?

 

[Aussiecsi]

Okay, come on! We're all in love with these early BMWs, but you've got to agree the thin veneer wood accents, the electric window technology, pathetic chromed plastic, etc., fall short of perfection.
I'm still in love with the little rocket ship I gave up to get my E9; the '99 MCoupe. That also fell far short of perfection when the rear differential broke completely from the body...
I'm going to have to google "Wenge", and I'm liking mahogany even more. Any thoughts on finding a dilapidated wood set? Post in classifieds?

...gotta say I agree 100%...compared to say quality of Mercedes of same era the finish is a bit " home handyman " ...anyone trying to fit parts/panels from say a donor car knows what I mean . The woodwork ?....well , it's an industry in itself ..ask Bela ! I will now go into my downunder bunker to avoid BMW fallout

 

[Stan]

Okay, come on! We're all in love with these early BMWs, but you've got to agree the thin veneer wood accents, the electric window technology, pathetic chromed plastic, etc., fall short of perfection.
I'm still in love with the little rocket ship I gave up to get my E9; the '99 MCoupe. That also fell far short of perfection when the rear differential broke completely from the body...
I'm going to have to google "Wenge", and I'm liking mahogany even more. Any thoughts on finding a dilapidated wood set? Post in classifieds?

I would agree, window moters atc, not exactly perfection but as to using a solid piece of wood for the dash, far beyond my skills. If you can do it, go ahead. it will likely loom awesome.

 

[dave v. in nc]

wood

I've designed wood and upholstered furniture for almost thirty-five years...and rebuilt a few dashes in the last few...I'm with jmackro on the "what I want mine to look like", much in same way that I don't plan to delete my aluminum beltline trim..but that's what makes horse races, I guess. I'll proffer a few ideas about wood...

Once a tree is cut down, its dead...all of the Murphy's oil ads about your wood is alive is BS. It does react to temp and humidity, and move, and solid wood will shrink and expand side to side, but negligibly in length..the cracks in that hardwood floor almost always are plank next to plank, not the ends where they butt together, right? And the larger/thicker the wood, the more movement...and that is for properly kiln-dried lumber (7-9% moisture).
Veneer has very "little memory" for movement, which is why most cars historically used veneer. It is thin, but not to be cheap...for uniformity, strength/stability, and most of all beauty...and durable if finished properly.

The same piece of solid walnut for the passenger dash would be apprx 8.25 X 4.75 X 32" gross...the curved end(s) will have tiny short-grain that will curl, and bust off or fall off as it moves while screwed to a torquing metal structure (your dash/bulkhead), especially after being sawn to .50" thick. Solid burl (think wood tumor or abberation) is brittle as there is no directional grain...like cutting grilled polenta... Steam bending works with straight-grain woods like oak, ash, teak and even walnut, but not with without great difficulty of set-up..some people in WI still do some oak in the US...
As to buying a dilapidated used set, if you are copying a less than perfect set, your fit will also be less than perfect. Used sets tend to be really good (that are usually still in a car), or the ends are potato chips, as moisture broke down the 40-year old hide glue(like most of the ones that I have purchased)..the long, fragile door pieces usually warp at the ashtray...rear "door" pieces are usually ok.
I think you can make all pieces from solid walnut(I was going to do teak, as its similar to the finished walnut, and I did work in Thailand) except for the L & R dash pieces...and the guage surround end grain will go much darker stain than the face.

Sorry so long (this IS the short version..), but if it was easy, everyone would already be doing it...
Good luck,
Dave

No such thing as an expert, only people with different levels of expertise...

 

[12doplumbing]

dave v in nc: i owe you a drink.

that was the post i was looking for. thank you. i appreciate the sharing of expertise in wood. Teak -- thats what our outdoor furniure is made of; a little plain, obscure grain like rosewood. right? but pretty dense and little expansion/contraction, right?
maybe i can figure out a way to still drive it with the wood trim out...

 

[twistinglane]

Veneer source

So if choose to redo the veneer on a decent core, is there a specific walnut veneer that has worked well?

 

[OCCoupe]

If I were more gutsy I'd do it in quarter sawn Wenge.

Wenge pronounced wen-gay is a pretty wood but it is a tight grain and the detail can get lost if it has a glossy finish.

Mercedes also used walnut for the W108 W109 chassis 250-300se sel which is a similar to that of our coupes and also a car of the same era.

 

[JFENG]

If you are going to redo the veneer yourself and (as mentioned by others) the substrate is okay. Sky's the limit. Do what makes you happy. If you want bling, there's lots of wild stuff out there, and you can tint it purple if it makes you happy.

I've used Certainly Wood in New York for 3 decades and 100% satisfaction. Dunno about good west coast veneer suppliers, but there must be lots.

Glues: I wouldn't use hide glue. Yes, it's nice because it's reversible and can be "hammered" on, and it's got a little bit of give/creep. But that delamination that some E9's get is due to a failure of the glue bond. Sure, maybe you don't need it to last 40 years, but why not go with something more permanent? I would also not use the lazy man's hide glue (aliphatic resin eg Titebond, reactivated by heat, sometimes called iron on veneer glue). Contact cements ... just say no.

I would recommend epoxy or my old standby ... powdered urea resin glue (toxic, esp in it's powdered state). I recommended it because
(1) It dries really 'stiff' so it minimizes creep, checking, delamination, etc. It really comes into it's own on bent laminations where it has the least spring back of any glues I used back in the day.
(2) It's water proof so unaffected by humidity and reasonable levels of cold/hot
(3) long setup time, good for beginners
(4) if you expect to get any bleed thru, Weldwood "Plastic Resin Glue" dries a medium brown ... which might be invisible if it's small and on walnut veneer. You can color it by adding a small amount powerdered artists pigments, but epoxy is better if you need to change the color of a glue (West System Epoxy is some of the best stuff, but fumes are nasty).

The main downside is that Urea Formaldehyde glue doesn't have much 'grab' and when combined with the long setup time it requires a good means for keeping the veneer aligned on the substrate and a for applying uniform pressure until the glue hardness (24hrs).

Vacuum bag is the best, IMHO, but you can also use a heavy stackup of flexible strips to form a thick caul combined with lots of hand clamps.

 

[rsporsche]

my suggestion is to use a lightly figured wood - either plain sliced / flat cut or quarter figured. this is a flat cut figured walnut

 

[rsporsche]

here are a few favorites

zebrawood (quartered - non figure)

sapele (ribbon stripe - quartered - non figure)

santos rosewood (quarter - non figure)

etimoe (flat cut - non figure)

black limba (quartered - non figure)

 

[David]

Walnut

My door wood is solid pine I shaped by hand and then added the walnut veneer.

 

[Honolulu]

Me likey the rosewood... but... I got a several armloads of old koa flooring from sources in my neighborhood. I had little to lose so I ripped one bit on my tablesaw, and made an approximate copy of the trim on the passenger door. I lose interest sometimes, so this took several intermittent days, but I got a couple coats of urethane on it and (even) the wife says it looks pretty good.

My lessons are that 1, it's (a little) harder than it looks but it's absolutely doable for straight pieces; 2) veneer is absolutely the way to go with curves; 3) if I ever disassemble and re-veneer the dash I'll make myself a vacuum bag arrangement using a AC vacuum pump from a neighbor.

Let me also comment about aliphatic resin glue referred to above. 50 years ago my grandfather, who would make anything of wood though not to cabinet grade, came upon some koa and made a few bits of furniture from them. Nothing too fancy, but my mom had a display case and upon my folks' demise I have a couple small end tables. Every Weldwood (the trade name) glue joint is separating - the stuff turns to powder after 50 years. I am having to clean out the joints, hopefully not by taking the piece altogether apart, and re-gluing with epoxy. Lots of clamps and a good deal of 220, 400, 600 sanding after, but the raw wood will really shine after 600, and when a finish goes on the color really pops.

A friend who makes nice bits of koa prefers a rubbed-on finish of Briwax. I made my own using coconut oil and beeswax. It smells nice and has a lovely soft feel. For the car, though, urethane is a better sealer and is moisture resistant.