insurance companies here will no pay for catastrophic events like this, there is a consortium that takes care of this situations, this avoids bankruptcy cases,
does this sound different?
Wildfire empathy thread...
- Thread starter dave v. in nc
- Start date
insurance companies here will no pay for catastrophic events like this, there is a consortium that takes care of this situations, this avoids bankruptcy cases,
does this sound different?
@Dan Wood totally agree re. Gaza, shameful.
The California insurance market is interesting. I have family in Northern California (I am a native of CA, moving 20 years ago for work) and some have received notices of homeowners insurance cancellation due to fire risk. This is a result of the years of fires, many of which were a result of PG&E (regional power generator/provider) deferred maintenance. Once those fires get started large areas burn as a result of the decades long drought.
I am not sure if Southern California has had the same issues re. insurance cancellation as their power provider has not had the issues that PG&E has, but the drought conditions are similar. There are many insurance carriers that have instituted a moratorium on writing new homeowners coverage in No. California and in some cases homeowners must go onto a state run system. The problem there is that it is a risk retention fund and will pay out only what is in the fund, and that could be pennies on the dollar.
With the insurance carriers, they do have re-insurance against large losses, but those treaties of re-insurance require the carrier to handle losses up to a certain limit (think of it as a deductible) and, depending upon the treaty the re-insurer will cover up to a certain dollar amount. Each of the large fires around the LA basin is a different loss, so the insurance carriers will have a deductible for each of the major fires.
If an insurance carrier becomes insolvent as a result of these massive claims, they will pay out for all the losses, but it will be pennies on the dollar.
This could force more consolidation of the insurance market, which is not good for consumers...
The California insurance market is interesting. I have family in Northern California (I am a native of CA, moving 20 years ago for work) and some have received notices of homeowners insurance cancellation due to fire risk. This is a result of the years of fires, many of which were a result of PG&E (regional power generator/provider) deferred maintenance. Once those fires get started large areas burn as a result of the decades long drought.
I am not sure if Southern California has had the same issues re. insurance cancellation as their power provider has not had the issues that PG&E has, but the drought conditions are similar. There are many insurance carriers that have instituted a moratorium on writing new homeowners coverage in No. California and in some cases homeowners must go onto a state run system. The problem there is that it is a risk retention fund and will pay out only what is in the fund, and that could be pennies on the dollar.
With the insurance carriers, they do have re-insurance against large losses, but those treaties of re-insurance require the carrier to handle losses up to a certain limit (think of it as a deductible) and, depending upon the treaty the re-insurer will cover up to a certain dollar amount. Each of the large fires around the LA basin is a different loss, so the insurance carriers will have a deductible for each of the major fires.
If an insurance carrier becomes insolvent as a result of these massive claims, they will pay out for all the losses, but it will be pennies on the dollar.
This could force more consolidation of the insurance market, which is not good for consumers...
Footnote: State Farm is the most vulnerable right now. They do not rely on re-insurance carriers as much as the other major companies. So it seems to me there will be fewer pennies on the dollar to pay for a huge number of claims from their insureds.
OK, I feel I am about to ask a stupid question.
(I live far away, and information i have may be incomplete/inaccurate. Anyway just start asking is the best way forward i think)
I see many houses burnt down, a terrible sight. Many lives changed forever, and i learned that some even didn't make it out. This, and other natural disasters, are horrific.
I also hear that the Fire Department was battling with a water shortage.
But you have a sea next door. It's quite full I'd say; Why don't they use sea water?
Surely some salt will be less problematic than having it all turned to ashes.
I think if I'd own a villa on the shore, I'd invest in generators & pumps to get the seawater up, and sprinklers on the roof & around the garden. I would see it as another form of insurance, but then fully in my control.
What am i missing here?
(I live far away, and information i have may be incomplete/inaccurate. Anyway just start asking is the best way forward i think)
I see many houses burnt down, a terrible sight. Many lives changed forever, and i learned that some even didn't make it out. This, and other natural disasters, are horrific.
I also hear that the Fire Department was battling with a water shortage.
But you have a sea next door. It's quite full I'd say; Why don't they use sea water?
Surely some salt will be less problematic than having it all turned to ashes.
I think if I'd own a villa on the shore, I'd invest in generators & pumps to get the seawater up, and sprinklers on the roof & around the garden. I would see it as another form of insurance, but then fully in my control.
What am i missing here?
The city/ fresh water supply is all gravity fed from reservoirs and storage tanks, and the demand was such that supply could not keep up with demand. Sea water is used by airplane tankers that fly in and load up while moving, and by helicopters with buckets.
Canada sent down a few of the airplanes that can scoop up the water from lakes or the ocean, at least one of which was disabled when it collided with a privately owned drone. They are using sea water from helicopters as well.
The news show 60 minutes just ran a story on the fires. They asked a couple of fire chiefs from the affected areas about the water pressure issue and having enough resources. One of the chiefs shared that they usually have ~three trucks respond to a structure fire, and if you extrapolate the need for equipment based on the number of structures lost they would need 26,000 trucks...clearly not possible as there are not that many trucks in the state.
Canada sent down a few of the airplanes that can scoop up the water from lakes or the ocean, at least one of which was disabled when it collided with a privately owned drone. They are using sea water from helicopters as well.
The news show 60 minutes just ran a story on the fires. They asked a couple of fire chiefs from the affected areas about the water pressure issue and having enough resources. One of the chiefs shared that they usually have ~three trucks respond to a structure fire, and if you extrapolate the need for equipment based on the number of structures lost they would need 26,000 trucks...clearly not possible as there are not that many trucks in the state.
same here
i can not understand the response and the outcome, too bad to bear, but probably i can not get the size of the fires
there are recurrent fires in south spain all summers, really big fires, but usually far from residential areas, some times one house/farm gets destroyed
the scale of this one is incredible,
but when you allow residential use you should consider safety plans and means needed; otherwise is allowing all the fire load to burn, which has been the case
propoagation depends of distance, i know that there have been terrible winds, but my guess is that some properties are 2 meters away one from another
again impossible to extrapolate from our reality, i have been looking to the density of housing in the area and it is simply ridicuolus
Oh, I live in the Netherlands. Care to guess how close my neighbor is? The only reason they do not complain over my angle grinder at 22:00 at night is because they are 82 years old.... But then again we have plenty of water so there is a balance.
I guess the houses are mainly wood structures, providing a lot of energy as well?
Balance is everything.
hope it gets tackled soon.
I guess the houses are mainly wood structures, providing a lot of energy as well?
Balance is everything.
hope it gets tackled soon.
Sea water is not used unless no other option because it corrodes the equipment and is not as effective as fresh water in putting out fires. Also been too windy to fly the planes in from the ocean.
I understand that putting out the fires with sea water would leave the land sterile and nothing would grow there again. But they had to start using it...
There are reasons that I have heard why they ran out of water:
It has very dry for several months of no rain
Due to high winds the power company cut off power so that if the power lines were downed they wouldn't start fires (this has happened before)
Without electrical power, the water towers weren't being filled (pumped) which is the source of water for the hydrants.
I had heard there were generators enroute to power the water towers
There was a reservoir that was empty due to maintenance
It has very dry for several months of no rain
Due to high winds the power company cut off power so that if the power lines were downed they wouldn't start fires (this has happened before)
Without electrical power, the water towers weren't being filled (pumped) which is the source of water for the hydrants.
I had heard there were generators enroute to power the water towers
There was a reservoir that was empty due to maintenance
Imagine they dropped sea water on some of it falls on your E9...game over
. Rusts in days.I thought fire retardants from airplanes was the method for forest fires, and water for individual house/block fires.
In terms of the causes I have heard forever about the Santa Ana winds which come East to West, so the air is desert warm to start, and as it drops into the Valley gets really heated by the compression of the increased atmospheric pressure.
It seems like the most attractive places to live are always dangerous, Venice is flooded, Mexico City is sinking, NYC is rat city (or cockroach if you want variety), LA has no water and fires, San Francisco has earthquakes, without even considering crime and wars...oh well. On that positive note, enjoy the week.
@deQuincey , @eriknetherlands
Indeed it is the scale of the destruction, with at least 5,000 homes in the Pacific Palisades alone on fire, that made it so hard to fight. These fires burn HOT. I saw the aluminum parts from a car melted on the road.
We have friends who used to live on Hartzell St, in the "cheap" part of Palisades, and they could reach out the window and touch the house next door.
As for cause, they have had no rain at all since March 2024. Not a drop. After heavy rains last winter promoted thick plant growth.
When the winds were 70-80 mph those first days, no planes or copters could fly.
The citizens of Palisades in hind sight should have paid for firebreaks to be cut and plants to be removed, and perhaps for prescribed burns. But from what I understand, Palisades is just a section of the gigantic City of Los Angeles and is not self governing. I see that as a problem. They had unique needs, with such high fire risk. They should have insisted on creating their own fire district, with their own tax levy. I best this will happen in the future.
As for the Malibu homes perched on the ocean, those homes began as disposable wooden shacks built for no cost, 50-100 years ago. They were replaced by luxury homes. Ad the beach has eroded there over time, as it has in many places. Homes in many places on the US coast all used to be disposable wooden shacks, but that changed in the last 50 years.
Indeed it is the scale of the destruction, with at least 5,000 homes in the Pacific Palisades alone on fire, that made it so hard to fight. These fires burn HOT. I saw the aluminum parts from a car melted on the road.
We have friends who used to live on Hartzell St, in the "cheap" part of Palisades, and they could reach out the window and touch the house next door.
As for cause, they have had no rain at all since March 2024. Not a drop. After heavy rains last winter promoted thick plant growth.
When the winds were 70-80 mph those first days, no planes or copters could fly.
The citizens of Palisades in hind sight should have paid for firebreaks to be cut and plants to be removed, and perhaps for prescribed burns. But from what I understand, Palisades is just a section of the gigantic City of Los Angeles and is not self governing. I see that as a problem. They had unique needs, with such high fire risk. They should have insisted on creating their own fire district, with their own tax levy. I best this will happen in the future.
As for the Malibu homes perched on the ocean, those homes began as disposable wooden shacks built for no cost, 50-100 years ago. They were replaced by luxury homes. Ad the beach has eroded there over time, as it has in many places. Homes in many places on the US coast all used to be disposable wooden shacks, but that changed in the last 50 years.
wow, a sucession of failures ! they say that one catastrophe does not come for one only reason, but for several of them
that is important,
Sweet Home Topanga on Instagram: "Photos of Topanga Beach in the 20s ️ Topanga Historical Society Digital Archive, accessed September 28, 2023,"
332 likes, 10 comments - sweethometopanga on September 30, 2023: "Photos of Topanga Beach in the 20s ️ Topanga Historical Society Digital Archive, accessed September 28, 2023,".
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What the beach shacks used to look like near Topanga Canyon (east section of Malibu)
if you look in the lower right corner of the attached screenshot, you will find my friend's compound on the beach. we used to call it a beachshack on a 4 million dollar property. he has sense bought the next door property and made it into an amazing compound. i used to see this house used in commercials - during the Australian summer olympics it was shown to be on the beach in Oz. it has been shown to be on the beach in the PNW and others. it was used in an episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. the house has escaped the fire - it is the easternmost house in Malibu ... and now is one of the few that still exist after the fires.
so when you think of the way forward for rebuilding these areas - in a fire zone due to the Santa Ana winds, being in a significant earthquake zone ... and right on the ocean. in order to be able to get insurance, the methods of construction are going to have to be changed. more concrete, less 'burnable' materials. they will spend much more in construction, but might be able to afford / obtain insurance.
All roofs made out of metal in the future! Earthquake resistant, because light and flexible. And won't burn. Maybe corrugated metal siding. And defensible space around the home of course.
These fires and the scale of destruction will likely result in substantial adjustment to building requirements for non-flammable materials on all exterior surfaces. This may result in some initial slow-down in permitting, but in reality there is a hell of a lot of clean up that is required before any rebuilding happens...
its not just the surface, it can be what's behind it / supporting it. remember, most metals deform when significant heat is experienced. when you look at the fire testing of building materials, it is tested as a composite. same is true with wind testing - its the size / spacing of the framework and how the planar material (siding or glass) is attached.
have you ever looked at steel beams warped by an internal fire (not near as hot as these fires). how about a concrete overpass that had a gas tanker fire underneath ... the internal steel deforms and the concrete looses its tensile strength and fails. wood can combust when exposed to enough heat (whether direct or indirect heat), metal can deform due to heat or bend due to wind forces. these fires produced ridiculous heat, combined with hurricane force winds. anybody who's house has survived is mostly just dumb luck.
Scott has it right with 'defensible' space around the houses. concrete fire block walls or other non-combustible material walls to break fire / wind patterns. when you look at 'row' houses, in many building codes there is a 2 to 4 hour wall between houses sharing a common wall. condominiums and hotels have significantly less fire ratings between units.
have you ever looked at steel beams warped by an internal fire (not near as hot as these fires). how about a concrete overpass that had a gas tanker fire underneath ... the internal steel deforms and the concrete looses its tensile strength and fails. wood can combust when exposed to enough heat (whether direct or indirect heat), metal can deform due to heat or bend due to wind forces. these fires produced ridiculous heat, combined with hurricane force winds. anybody who's house has survived is mostly just dumb luck.
Scott has it right with 'defensible' space around the houses. concrete fire block walls or other non-combustible material walls to break fire / wind patterns. when you look at 'row' houses, in many building codes there is a 2 to 4 hour wall between houses sharing a common wall. condominiums and hotels have significantly less fire ratings between units.
Understanding how unique and potentially devastating the Santa Ana winds that blow through that part of CA is key.
I first heard of them reading Raymond Chandler‘s “Red Wind” in college. written in 1946 it-opens:
“There was a desert wind blowing that night, It was one of those hot dry Santa Anas that come down through the mountain passes and curl your hair and make your nerves jump and your skin itch.”
I first heard of them reading Raymond Chandler‘s “Red Wind” in college. written in 1946 it-opens:
“There was a desert wind blowing that night, It was one of those hot dry Santa Anas that come down through the mountain passes and curl your hair and make your nerves jump and your skin itch.”
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