Have a new-to-me 1972 E9 CSi with the old style non-retractable seat belts. I see various things people have done to update this but it doesn't seem that there are any recent ideas post-2017. I see a lot of references to @bluedevil, but I don't see any recent posts by him and two emails to the email address I found in the forums have gone unanswered. I'm thinking about ordering a set from QuickPlanet and trying to figure out where to go from there unless anyone who has done this upgrade recently has some better ideas...
The endless seatbelt update question
- Thread starter e9Leveque
- Start date
Your Euro coupe had the fixed shoulder belt mounted behind rear seat armrest with a fixed or possibly retractable lap belt I assume. The 74 had a horizontal retractor behind the rear seat but you would need to modify or swap out the rear armrests and fabricate a mount. Sometime in 72 a fixture was added to the roof in front of the grab handle for the fixed shoulder belt. At this point any mod could be a bit challenging. Easiest is to mount the retractor on the rocker where the fixed lap mount is and use a belt long enough attach to rear seat area after it crosses your lap and shoulder and find something to hold it to the headrest post I would think. I believe Al is still around but he would need to know how long your belts would be. Good luck.
Minivansomeren
Well-Known Member
I have a similar setup - ‘70 2800cs
Does anybody route the upper belt between the headrest and the seat? Currently the upper belt of mine just passes awkwardly across my torso and under my arm. Doesn’t feel as safe as a belt going over the shoulder.
Does anybody route the upper belt between the headrest and the seat? Currently the upper belt of mine just passes awkwardly across my torso and under my arm. Doesn’t feel as safe as a belt going over the shoulder.
My coupe is a 1972, originally with the lap belt and a separate shoulder belt that could be attached if desired. The shoulder belt was anchored at a point just forward of the rear window (as @HB Chris describes). I sourced my replacement belts from Al, but I don't have his contact information any longer.
The shot below shows the new belt system that includes the retracting mechanism located at the sill and the other anchor is the factory point at the roof.
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The shot below shows the new belt system that includes the retracting mechanism located at the sill and the other anchor is the factory point at the roof.
I too have a 70 2800cs, there is a block of metal under the headliner on either side above the passenger and driver side on 3.0 E9's. These can be used to mount retractable shoulder harnesses. Unfortunately the 2800cs (I think all of them) don't have these blocks. I'm told that removing the headliner will destroy it but you can mount blocks if you remove the headliner.
Minivansomeren
Well-Known Member
Yeah it’s not a huge concern for me… I had just wondered why the headrest supports are so wide, and whether this was to accommodate a shoulder belt? But I have never seen a picture of a belt routed through that space between the headrest and the seat.
I agree, it SEEMS as if the belt should route underneath that little "handle" that holds the headrest portion. I have seen one picture on here of a device that someone had made that helps hold the belt next to the headrest support but I'm not sure where that came from. For @boonies above, any chance you can send a few more pictures showing those various attachment points? Did you have to take down the headliner? I'm also hesitant to remove the headliner to access that block, seems like if I make a tear in that it's hard to fix. Also, for @boonies, if I am understanding correctly one end of the belt is tethered at the "behind the armrest" location. Why do you need the roof anchor support? Would seem that the belt could be attached at the back, run over the headrest, gets clipped in in the standard location (thereby making the shoulder portion secure from left upper rear to right lower), then the lap portion runs across lap left to right and enters the retractor anchored down on the floor. I'm likely missing something here. That scenario is basically what I have right now, but non-retracting. Looks like even through BMW added the retractor portion behind the armrest, hidden out of sight, @boonies has shown that it can be the retractor on the other end, near the floor sill.
Al’s belts are simple to install and use. I have them in my car.
Can’t stand the factory setup.
And you don’t have to open the door to use…
And you don’t have to open the door to use…
The anchor point on the roof was selected in my case because it is a known reinforcement point that was built into the vehicle body by BMW. There are others that have used different points, some in the back seat area, but it is not clear that those points are reinforced.
I will take some better shots (or see if I can find them) that show the belt assembly.
I will take a picture of the complete installation tomorrow if it will be helpful.
The anchor points (both original and new) are at the sill and directly above. Those two points held the now replaced components which were the lap belt and the separate shoulder belt.
The receiver, (pictured below with no item number) remains attached to the mounting point adjacent to the seat, at the reinforced position on the driveshaft hump.
The roof anchor point simply allows the belt to extend from the new receiver up to the roof anchor point where it slides through a plastic guide (pictured) allowing it to expand and retract without interference.
I will take some better shots (or see if I can find them) that show the belt assembly.
I will take a picture of the complete installation tomorrow if it will be helpful.
The anchor points (both original and new) are at the sill and directly above. Those two points held the now replaced components which were the lap belt and the separate shoulder belt.
The receiver, (pictured below with no item number) remains attached to the mounting point adjacent to the seat, at the reinforced position on the driveshaft hump.
The roof anchor point simply allows the belt to extend from the new receiver up to the roof anchor point where it slides through a plastic guide (pictured) allowing it to expand and retract without interference.
Thanks guys, that helps. And yes @boonies any help you can provide be would be great - were your belts also from Al? @sfdon, thanks for your input as well. I own this car because of you - you helped me decide it was worth bidding on during Monterey car week and I appreciate your wise input.
So now I just need to hope that Al gets back to me. Seems odd that he doesn’t have a username on the forum anymore - there is no @bluedevils that looks active. That’s why I’m wondering if I’m going to have to reinvent this.
So now I just need to hope that Al gets back to me. Seems odd that he doesn’t have a username on the forum anymore - there is no @bluedevils that looks active. That’s why I’m wondering if I’m going to have to reinvent this.
Early cars do not have the roof mount. If it is there you can feel it with your finger tips, about 1” forward of the grab handle.
i have toyed with this in my 2800cs - no roof hook / plate. originally i just had a retractor lap belt. i had thought about trying to use the belt from the early e24 6er, but i would need to significantly beef up the B pillar to support the upper pivot. not sure that is gonna work after looking at the car today. one of the new thoughts is to run a steel bar between the headrest supports on the Scheel seats with the holder / upper pivot over the shoulder.
what i can tell you about running a seatbelt through the headrest posts is a good way to hurt your neck if an accident happened.
what i can tell you about running a seatbelt through the headrest posts is a good way to hurt your neck if an accident happened.
An answer engraved in my memory from the days I joined e9coupe about safety items:
- Are you sure you want to survive and see the damage?
- Are you sure you want to survive and see the damage?
I’ll call Al today if you want. Or- I may have a new set on the shelf from him.
Send me a PM with your ph. Number.
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A belt under your arm will do almost nothing. I'm into crash testing for my job, and can tell you that your medical condition with just a (1950's era) hip belt vs a 3point belt with the shoulder section worn under your arm in an e9 is about equal: Really bad from 20km/h - 15 mph as your torso will impact the steering wheel and your head likely reach the windshield. Expect a 50% lethal outcome from speeds as low as 40mph/60pkh.
From what i now know, I'd say route it over the horizontal bar.
star with a disclaimer - I'm guessing that in an e9 your seatbelt setup defines only ~20% of your safety, the rest is (not) done by the weak shell.... A donut has more crumple resistance. Defensive driving adds much more vs what a perfect seatbelt layout will add. Still, everything helps, so here's my take on it:
From what I see and expect the retractor type belts will be safer compared to static ones, as people tend to let static ones be a bit more 'free' to allow for movement. The tighter the belt, the better the crash outcome.
Ideally the belt contacts your collarbone, about in the middle (seen L to R from front), and then follow the shoulder curve a bit upwards and then loose contact with the shoulder just below the top point of your shoulder. Thus it should be about an inch from your neck. Think of it as a contact patch, like in tire knowledge.
Now this 'contact patch' position is influenced by the driver dimensions, and the vehicle belt geometry.
With regard to a roof mounted or mounted behind the rear armrest: I'm hesitant if the roof mount isn't too far forward: if it leaves the body at chest level to go up to the roof, then it's too far forward (or your seat is set to far backward; it's thus also stature related). If it runs over your collarbone and a bit further up, then it'll be OK.
When it comes to the question 'above the horizontal bar of the head rest, or below it', then my answer would be guided by 2 parts: 1st : if routed through the headrest: does the seat (under the leather/textile) actually have a significant steel structure there to support the downwards force exerted by the belt? If not, then it's a Hard NO: the belt would just dig in the seat backrest, freeing up belt length, allowing you to move forward excessively and hit steering wheel/glass. (I've never taken a seat apart, so I don't know). Part 2: only if there is a significant steel structure in the seat, and if the driver is small enough so that his/her shoulder does not climb above the seat's backrest, then it could be OK. Your shoulder should always be below the highest loading point of the belt otherwise you run the risk of spinal compression. I'm leaning towards "over". Still, I'm curious if in a crash the headrest is not simply pushed down by the belt-modern cars have a push-lock and notches on the stem; ours have just a rusty spring)
How will I lay out my car? Still undecided. I think I will want to run retractors as I plan on driving it as a daily 9 months of the year. Likely mount the retractor inside the lower B-pillar, and use the roof mount. I'm hesitant though if the roof mount isn't too far forward for me (I'm 6'1"), so I may relocate, and reinforce, the roof point. But the roof mount makes it really impractical to use the rear seats, is it not? As the seats themselves are weak, they do not allow for a seat mounted retractor, i may just end up with a retractor behind the rear armrest, and a self fabricated rigid steel C point on the horizontal or vertical headrest bars.
bimmerboy73
Well-Known Member
I have mine bolted in the threaded mounts in the rear deck. Plenty of reach in the belt to latch securely and allow for movement while seated.
Some very thorough responses here. You’d think that with the combined knowledge of the car and its structure, the knowledge that @eriknetherlands laid out above and the capability of the multiple members of the group we could have some consensus answer even if it involved manufacturing a part for placement in the car. That would be too easy though, wouldn’t it? I appreciate the discussion here. Waiting to hear back from SFDon or Al and in the meantime I’ll go deal with upgrading the seatbelts in my ‘62 MGA. I think that car’s crumple zone is equivalent to a wet donut.
Hey @e9Leveque keep us posted! Retractable belts on my 2800cs would be a game changer. I don't really drive the family around since I have to adjust the belts each time.
If you get a chance, post some pictures. Thanks.
I have installed the driver side retractable seat belt in the coupe using the original attachment bolts and locations.
I used this belt with a 6 inch metal extender which I bent to work around the rear seat bolster.
The action of the retractor is very smooth and a quick pull locks it up. I expect since it is mounted sideways that it might lock up with road bumps and it certainly easier to use than the original belts.
www.seatbeltsplus.com
I used this belt with a 6 inch metal extender which I bent to work around the rear seat bolster.
The action of the retractor is very smooth and a quick pull locks it up. I expect since it is mounted sideways that it might lock up with road bumps and it certainly easier to use than the original belts.
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