1972 3.0CSi - Riviera Blau Puzzle Project

Krzysztof

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Are the condition for the measurements done with the same conditions (what are the conditions on the BMW plot than would be good to ask).

I know from few sources E9 (as other cars w/o frame in 60's-70's) were flexible and thus sensitive to all the parts which are on the car. I heard stories about the cars which were perfectly aligned but have lost the alignment once the engine, suspension and glass/heavy parts were mounted.

Might it be it is somehow related to the way car should have been verified for proper dimensions but also some repair panels are not made from the steel type they have been in the factory (gauge, carbon content...).

From some reason BMW has not provided front and rear part divided into two dimensions (as they are hard to be measured). What is more, looking on the distance from the differential mount to rear suspension mounts dimensions are different - there is no symmetry there by factory. I would rather than measure total distance as provided on the chart rather than dividing it by symmetry line.

Have you been also checking symmetry on the outer shell to check if they are following suspension/floor assymetry? Than could in some cases confirm body deformation as they are all connected by welds.

I would not be surprised that at least some of the asymmetry came from rust and sills weaker structure combined with chassis fatigue due to age/condition of the car (still assuming no "situations" on the roads in the past).

It is the question how many people are making that measurements during restoration. It would be expected they will step-in and share their experience.
 

Cyrano

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Hi guys,

Thanks again for the contribution and sharing the experiences!

Now that I draw the centerline and noticed that there was an offset on the rear support and front support, I went in the inside of the car to look for any potential bend or suspect area.

Here is what I found:

At the back of the car, the gap between the stiffener plate (that holds the back seat) and the tunnel is not existant on the right hand side, but is about 10mm on the left hand side. Based on a few pictures I could see on other members restoration projects, there should be a gap on both sides.

Picture of the right side of the stiffener plate and tunnel: No gap!
IMG_4573.JPG


Picture of the left side of the stiffener plate and tunnel: 10mm gap
IMG_4575.JPG



In the middle of the car, the right front seat support is flush with the tunnel. But the left front seat support is not flush and about +5mm away. We can see the welding quality is very different.

Right support and tunnel are perfectly flush on the right side:
IMG_4574.JPG


Left support and tunnel show a gap of +5mm on the left side (see the shape of the welding).
IMG_4576.JPGIMG_4577.JPG



Based on these additional investigation, I have the feeling that the tunnel was not centered (or already misshapen) while welded into place at the factory... back in 1972...

Would that make sense?
 

Breiti

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Yes, it make sense.

I join (later and in a other plant, not bmw) more than once the discussion, if an production fault is saleable or not.

If there is an gap under there carpet, cars would be sold as they are.

When they recognize it, they correct the fault and that's it.

My Mercedes has a repair at the roof skin definitely in the plant.

You won't believe how much body fault running out ro the customer...
All other means scraping it.
Nobody want that.

Breiti
 

eriknetherlands

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I agree that what you find means that things in your car are non-symetric. But the tunnel "can't be" off-centre, as it's the first part laid down when the rest of the parts (sills, wheel arches, pillars etc) are being welded to it. The floor is 1 big pressing, the tunnel is not a seperate part.
For instance, the sills are just mated to the left and right edges of the floor, and thus the inner sill IS always equidistant from the tunnel's center. (unless the pressing of the floor is 5 mm larger on Left side and 5 mm smaller on right, which practically can't happen as it is a one piece steel pressing )You can confirm that by measuring, in the interior, from the side of the tunnel to the inside of the Sill. I think you will find that Left and right are within 1mm identical.

I'd rather think that the parts that are added to the floor+sills are off-center; for example the stiffener plate back seat: functionally only the top edge holds the rear seats, so when that is at the right height, it's function is fulfilled. The relative left right position isn't important, so seeing the 10 and 0mm gap to me wouldn't matter if I was the worker in the factory.
The seat supports also allow for some misalignment, as the the mounting points (the caged nuts) allow to slide the seats rails to their correct & parallel positions. After all, if the seat is 5 mm further to the center; who cares? As long as it freely slides front to back and the seat doesn't hit another vehicle component, it is functional.

I make this explanation as i think it means that although the pics you showed have non-symmetric elements, it doesn't mean (to me) that you've identified if (or why) your front or rear axle is mis aligned.

Biggest question to me (still) would be how the mounting points of the front and rear axle line up to the center of the car (=floor)
For this, i would mount 2 wooden sticks under the sills, running from left to right with the decorative trim panel unscrewed from the sill. One stick at the front, one stick at the back. Mark where the vertical plane of the inside sill falls onto the wooden stick. Then mark the middle of the wooden sticks.
From that, run a line (rope /laser) over it, to extend it to front and back so that you can verify the position of the axles and/or their respective mounting points.

Erik
 
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Krzysztof

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I do agree with Erik and that leads me to the point in the past to check external body parts looking for non-symmetry there as sills and fender or pillars are critical and thus mounted to the floor panel at some points.
 
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