3.0 CSL is undervalued... 74 Porsche 911 Carrera RS 3.0 (RHD) for $600 000!

[CSL 1973]

As regards the Porsche 911 Carrera RS, the plan was to build only 500 cars but due to the high demand a total of 1590 cars were build (compared to 1265 3.0 CSLs + 20 race ones).

Detailed production figures for the 1972-1973 Porsche 911 Carrera RS:

1308 RS-Touring
217 RS-Sport
55 RSR 2.8 Gruppe 4
10 Prototypes

How many of these Porsches have survived today, I don't know but for the BMW 3.0 CSL almost 50% of all produced cars have been traced (status January 2010):

2285xxx traced cars 318 (500)
2275xxx traced cars 176 (429)
2275xxx traced cars 64 (110)
4355xxx traced cars 35 (57)

Race 2276000-2275981 20 (20)

Total traced CSLs (excluding race): 593 out of 1265 (approx 47%)

With the usual reservations

Cheers

 

[CSL 1973]

Sorry, forgot the carb ones...

2210-2211-2212xxx traced 53 (169)

2285xxx traced cars 318 (500)
2275xxx traced cars 176 (429)
2275xxx traced cars 64 (110)
4355xxx traced cars 35 (57)

Race 2276000-2275981 20 (20)

Total traced CSLs (excluding race): 646 out of 1265 (approx 51%)

Cheers

 

[DJSimca]

All true what you mention in your last three posts 'CSL 1973' ... however the CSL in its roadgoing version could not touch the roadgoing 2.7 RS in terms of performance

The CSL was set up more like a GT than a 'boy racer' like the RS

 

[Mario L.]

Real hard sales numbers

Interesting thread . . .
I have two CSLs in my shop right now for which I am trying to establish some real numbers . . .
Has anyone tracked real sales prices of these cars along with conditions of the cars that sold?

TIA,
Mario L.

 

[chicane]

As regards the Porsche 911 Carrera RS, the plan was to build only 500 cars but due to the high demand a total of 1590 cars were build (compared to 1265 3.0 CSLs + 20 race ones).

Detailed production figures for the 1972-1973 Porsche 911 Carrera RS:

1308 RS-Touring
217 RS-Sport
55 RSR 2.8 Gruppe 4
10 Prototypes

How many of these Porsches have survived today, I don't know but for the BMW 3.0 CSL almost 50% of all produced cars have been traced (status January 2010):

2285xxx traced cars 318 (500)
2275xxx traced cars 176 (429)
2275xxx traced cars 64 (110)
4355xxx traced cars 35 (57)

Race 2276000-2275981 20 (20)

Total traced CSLs (excluding race): 593 out of 1265 (approx 47%)

With the usual reservations

Cheers

It's called supply AND demand. The demand for the CSL's is lower than for the RS. It's just that simple.

 

[CSL 1973]

The market is always right and as we all know and currently the demand for a RS is bigger. Therefore, the RS is more expensive compared to the CSL. However, this is valid for today.

Learn about the future by knowing the past.

10 years ago CSLs were sold for about 10 000 Euro and nobody would belive a CSL to be sold for 120 000 Euro in 2006.

Collectors will push up the price if they think a car is undervalued and has the potential to be a sound investment. In terms of values, the RS has already reached a certain level but the CSL has still a nice up-side. The top figures will be for a few special CSLs but this will also has a positive price-effect on the "ordinary" road going CSLs.

Some CSL Hammer price from established Auction houses:

4 000 GBP (CSL 2285375 at Sandown, UK May 1994)
12 200 GBP (CSL 2285119 at Barons, UK May 2004)
84 600 GBP (CSL 2275512 at Christies, UK June 2006)
23 500 GBP (CSL 2285303 at Coys, UK January 2007)
71 500 GBP (CS/CSL race prep, H&H UK May 2009)
25 000 GBP (CSL 2285240 at Bonhams, UK July 2009)
63 600 Euro (CSL 2211721 at Coys, August 2009)
150 000 USD (CSL 4355049 at Bonhams, USA August 2009)

Looking at the trend, and in order to be a little bit provocative; in 4-5 years time, I think the CSL has closed the gap to the RS.

Cheers

 

[chicane]

The market is always right and as we all know and currently the demand for a RS is bigger. Therefore, the RS is more expensive compared to the CSL. However, this is valid for today.

Learn about the future by knowing the past.

10 years ago CSLs were sold for about 10 000 Euro and nobody would belive a CSL to be sold for 120 000 Euro in 2006.

Collectors will push up the price if they think a car is undervalued and has the potential to be a sound investment. In terms of values, the RS has already reached a certain level but the CSL has still a nice up-side. The top figures will be for a few special CSLs but this will also has a positive price-effect on the "ordinary" road going CSLs.

Some CSL Hammer price from established Auction houses:

4 000 GBP (CSL 2285375 at Sandown, UK May 1994)
12 200 GBP (CSL 2285119 at Barons, UK May 2004)
84 600 GBP (CSL 2275512 at Christies, UK June 2006)
23 500 GBP (CSL 2285303 at Coys, UK January 2007)
71 500 GBP (CS/CSL race prep, H&H UK May 2009)
25 000 GBP (CSL 2285240 at Bonhams, UK July 2009)
63 600 Euro (CSL 2211721 at Coys, August 2009)
150 000 USD (CSL 4355049 at Bonhams, USA August 2009)

Looking at the trend, and in order to be a little bit provocative; in 4-5 years time, I think the CSL has closed the gap to the RS.

Cheers

Maybe you are familiar with this phrase from the brokerage business: "Past performance truly "does not guarantee future results."

You might also be familiar with the Vintage Ferrari bust of the early 90's. Prices just kept going up and up then.....

You might also want to talk to American home owners and ask them about their primary investment.

I have said it once and I will say it again CARS ARE NOT AN INVESTMENT!!!

Predicting that ANY car price will keep going up or is woefully undervalued is dangerous and a fool's errand.....


(Not to mention you prices are not a benchmark. You are mixing in City pack cars, standard lightweights, Bats, and race cars). If you are going to do a price comparison you need to compare each of these cars in a linear fashion.

 

[TodB]

value

Ditto to the The Chic.

Past performance is no guarantee of future success.

Until there is higher demand for coupes because they are perceived as an investment from a collector point of view due to rarity, provenance, etc., prices may not measurably change (slight increases due to age mainly) save for those one off sales every now and then. And just like the stock market, the prices can fall as fast as they rise.

Just drive you coupe and enjoy it. That is why you bought it.

 

[HB Chris]

To each his own, with or without bold fonts and exclamation points.

 

[claudeUS1]

Hi there,

I think a lot of you guys are confused on what the car on the add really is...

If you look at the tittle of the add, it's written " 1974 Porsche 911 G Carrera 3.0 "

The " G " after 911 means it's a G series for the year 1974.

All of you refering to the " RS " or " Carrera RS " are talking about the first RS or Carrera RS witch was a 2.7 liters engine with 210 HP @ 6300 tr/mn ( DIN ) or 209 states side witch was made in 1973 and had small bumpers ( F series ) and the duck tail. Chassis numbers 911-3600001 to 911-3601036

The car in the add is a " Carrera 3.0 " made for the year 1974. Only 109 were made. Only 20 more HP for Europe ( 230 HP @ 6200 tr/ mn ) but a much more torkey engine due to bigger displacement. Chassis 911-4609001 to 911-4609109.

If you read the all add, the seller point out the provenance of the car with a famous ownership ( Lord Hesketh well known to challenge well established Formula one teams in the early 70s with their driver James Hunt who later became Formula 1 World Champion with McLaren in 1976 )

This car is not an RSR, the RSR has bigger flared fenders than this one witch has the " stock " appearence of a Carrera RS 3.0.

Sincerely,
claudeUS1
soon to be the proud owner of a 3.0 CS here in Southern California!

 

[CSL 1973]

Hi Mario L,

Congrats to the CSLs and to the nice web site. By chance do you have the VIN of the CSLs and some photos?

Cheers

 

[jranmann]

soon to be the proud owner of a 3.0 CS here in Southern California!

Here, here!

Which coupe might I inquire?

 

[eastsideM3]

Maybe you are familiar with this phrase from the brokerage business: "Past performance truly "does not guarantee future results."

You might also be familiar with the Vintage Ferrari bust of the early 90's. Prices just kept going up and up then.....

You might also want to talk to American home owners and ask them about their primary investment.

I have said it once and I will say it again CARS ARE NOT AN INVESTMENT!!!

Predicting that ANY car price will keep going up or is woefully undervalued is dangerous and a fool's errand.....


(Not to mention you prices are not a benchmark. You are mixing in City pack cars, standard lightweights, Bats, and race cars). If you are going to do a price comparison you need to compare each of these cars in a linear fashion.

The same could be said for the stock market and housing market and most everything else thats considered an investment these days with bubbles being created as well. Buying a desireable car produced in limited numbers is a pretty safe investment for the long term, at least it has been from my experience. I will agree you cant really classify a city pack car with the lightweights and bats.

 

[claudeUS1]

Hi jranmann,

I will post pictures etc...when the car will be here in my garage..the car is a '73 3.0 CS, actually in the shop where I'm buying it to sort out a few details and I'm also waiting for a " dry " day to bring it home since, as you know, we are having some rain lately!

This is not a car seen on any add or here on the site, site that I enjoy and read the posts since about 6 months now learning a lot! :-D

Sincerely,
claudeUS1

 

[CSL 1973]

As regards car investments:

The history shows that collector cars are a pretty safe investment also during downturns in the economy.

For instance, look at the MB 300 SL (Gullwing) which was priced around 250 000 Euro during the peak around 1987-88. Then, it fall down to 150 000 Euro during the economic crash early 90s. Then up to 300 000 Euro during the next peak and down to 200 000 euro early 2000.

2009-2010 we have an economic downturn again and what's the price of the MB 300 SL Gullwing today? 100k, 200k or 300k Euro? No, it's actually around 500 000 Euro!

I don't think a collector car like the CSL is excluded from this type of evaluation. Of course much lower amounts, but my point is that the cheapiest CSLs will be more and more expensive and the top CSLs will set new ATH during every peak in the economy.

Every serious person understands to not compare collector cars with houses etc - it's two different issues. And no, the 300 SL Gullwing cannot be compared with CSLs. The 300 SL Gullwing was just mentioned here as an example that some collector cars could be a pretty safe investment in the long run.

It is not bad for the E9 owner's to know that meanwhile enjoing the cars, the values of or beloved cars will go up. I think that's one fundamental reason why more and more people decide to renovate their E9s and specially the CSL.

As always, when talking about collector car values, there will be two groups of people; the ones who belives in this and the one who not. I belong to the first group but I think that both groups are needed - this gives some interesting dynamic to the discussion.

Cheers

 

[CadillacGreen]

We are in the middle of a GLOBAL economic downturn/crash/reset that might well surpass the Great Depression.

Anyone who thinks of their E9 as an "investment" that will see a significant return in the next decade is going to be sorely disappointed, IMHO.

Remember, a lot of what fueled the recent run-up in prices on classic cars, guitars, memorabilia, etc. was due to people cashing in on their home's "value" using HELOC's to purchase a lot of toys that they couldn't otherwise afford.

Many are now left holding the bag on these items and having to liquidate them as the debt payments start to reset, their job disappears, etc.

Aberrations in every market exist, but the collector car market is probably going to keep sinking slowly for some time to come.

As always, buy the best example you can find and let someone else take the hit on the restoration. It's far easier to liquidate a restored car than a project that's in a thousand pieces. Just be aware that you may not be able to get your original purchase price back if you have to resell any time soon.

 

[CSL 1973]

Nothing to do with CSL etc, but interesting to note that for this object a lot of US dollars (260 500 euros) were paid by an American collector. It was sold at Bohans in Paris recently:

http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/gallery/19113/Bonhams-Bugatti-Type-22-Brescia.html

"One of the auction's most prolific lots was a Bugatti Type 22 Brescia Roadster, which had recently been recovered from the lakebed of the Lago Maggiore on the border of Switzerland and Italy. It had been submerged at 54 metres under the surface for nearly 75 years. Story has it that it was dropped there in 1936 to avoid paying duties on the Bugatti. At a sizeable expense it was brought back to the surface in 2009. In a very deteriorated condition it was offered with no reserve with the proceeds going to the 'Fondazione Damiano Tamagi.' Although it was estimated to sell for €70 - 90,000 the bidding did not stop until it reached a startling €260,500. The winning bidder was American collector Peter Mullin, who intends to display the car as is in his new museum."

Cheers

 

[jranmann]

Don't get me wrong ....

...but I am ceaselessly amazed at say, much like this forum is becoming the e24 group over at Bimmer discusses the same value issues ceaslessly...and it's interesting to see how the discussions surrounding the monetary 'value' of something as priceless as a good example of one of these fine automobiles we enjoy is perhaps endlessly tossed about and ultimately compared to Ferdinand's Leipzig offerings (bleak as the Porsche offerings are these days) and not discounting the attitude adjustmet one must assume in writing by proxy even to actually be allowed to own and drive one with the HMMWV (4wd) option.... most importantly also how these pricing or value assessments by some earnest folks here are also thought to not actually have an affect on perhaps newer member's and helps to form their impressions of our group here...when they most certainly do IMHO....mostly by they following threads like this one, in the hopes that in their eventual purchase, they don't 'pay too much'.

This is not Walmart or Target....if it were most of us would be in line, momentarily hating life, right?

It's one thing to spend 25 years pouring your heart and soul and life savings into likely the first and the last undercoated BMW Coupe I may ever own...But when I do decide on a non-undercoated e9 Coupe...it's another matter entirely to believe that on the other hand, any of you here would actually pay over $50k for a third or fouth round CSL coupe in Taiga and likely that figure would include shipping from Tablisi both crated and insured to it's full potential value plus 10 percent for good measure.

Whatever the heck that figure means...so just who are we kidding?

Cheers!

Ran

 

[chicane]

The same could be said for the stock market and housing market and most everything else thats considered an investment these days with bubbles being created as well.

Did you just not read my post that you quoted? That's exactly what I said.

Buying a desireable car produced in limited numbers is a pretty safe investment for the long term,

No it is NOT! And I would like to know what evidence you have that it is. Your average coupe (if you bought it new) doesn't even keep up with inflation. These are mass produced automobiles and hardly in limited numbers. The Ferrari GTO was produced in limited numbers. These coupes were produced in the thousands.

Nothing to do with CSL etc, but interesting to note that for this object a lot of US dollars (260 500 euros) were paid by an American collector. It was sold at Bohans in Paris recently:

http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/gallery/19113/Bonhams-Bugatti-Type-22-Brescia.html

Umm, so what?

 

[chicane]

As regards car investments:

The history shows that collector cars are a pretty safe investment also during downturns in the economy.

What history? If you are referring to your odd batch of numbers they show nothing.

For instance, look at the MB 300 SL (Gullwing) which was priced around 250 000 Euro during the peak around 1987-88. Then, it fall down to 150 000 Euro during the economic crash early 90s. Then up to 300 000 Euro during the next peak and down to 200 000 euro early 2000.

You are comparing a MB 300 SL (Gullwing) to a coupe? Nice try.

Every serious person understands to not compare collector cars with houses etc - it's two different issues.

Yes, a house appreciates in value over time.

And no, the 300 SL Gullwing cannot be compared with CSLs. The 300 SL Gullwing was just mentioned here as an example that some collector cars could be a pretty safe investment in the long run.

Apples and oranges. There are many things that influence the value of any car. Starting with condition, provenance and rarity. But also, as with your false comparison with the Mercedes-Benz 300SL Gullwing, desirability. The 300SL Gull and CSL were produced in similar numbers but the cars couldn't be more different. The 300SL was a technological marvel for it's time and had a timeless appearance stacking it up with the most legendary vehicles. Desirability is the X factor which truly drives up the price of collector cars and this just cannot be measured.

{ Not to mention the car cost about twice as much money in adjusted dollars.}