3.0 CSL is undervalued... 74 Porsche 911 Carrera RS 3.0 (RHD) for $600 000!

[pj]

I think the phrase here should be what does a absolutley perfect restored example sell for.

 

[jranmann]

IIRC, Here's what $35k will by you...

http://carandclassic.co.uk/car/C131168/

 

[chicane]

IIRC, Here's what $35k will by you...

http://carandclassic.co.uk/car/C131168/

Exactly and I think a trip to Europe is well worth it to prevent from getting screwed by some American seller.

 

[Andy of Finland]

If this motor was anywhere near as described it really was a genuine bargain -Although, there seem to be some details to sort out.

The thing is, it was a fire sale, and all of us missed the opportunity while jabbing here at the forum. For that price, I would buy this very car in a second despite it being RHD. Unfortunately, there aren’t any available.

Cheers Andy

 

[RogerB]

As the OP of this thread, I think we can now summarise this issue.

There are mainly two groups of people when we talk about CSL values:

- Belivers to the positive CSL price evaluation

- Non-belivers to the positive CSL price evaluation

Both sides have had their say in this provocative thread and I think there were some interesting aspects here. What we have in common is that we enjoy driving and working with our E9 cars and that's the most important. I bought my first E9 in 1982 (price tag 1 900 euro) and decided not to buy CSL Bat 2275527 in 1982 (price tag 2 000 euro).

I don't see why there would be a problem to enjoy an E9 and at the same time know that the value of the car is going up. The positive price evaluation of E9 is a nice fact but I think for most of us here, the most important is to enjoy our cars.

Values of E9 goes up and down but it is a fact that the CSL is a collector 's car today. Top values for the CSL could be ranged in the following order:

CSL race versions (2276000-2275981)
CSL bat (2275430-2275539 and 4355001-4355057) and the 169 carb ones
CSL lightweight (1165 kg) 2275001-2275429
CSL city pack (2275001-2275429)
CSL RHD (2285001-2285500)

As always with reservations that this in only my own humble opinion.

Cheers

CSL lightweight (1165 kg) 2275001-2275429
CSL city pack (2275001-2275429)

In which category does my my car 2275030 fall? It came from the factory with steel doors and fixed rear glass windows most likely due to Swiss law I am told. Otherwise, it was a lightweight. It did not have any of the other options normally associated with "city pack".

 

[CSL 1973]

Hi Roger!

Congrats to your early CSL 2275 car. If I remember correctly, the first city pack CSL was 2275014 and your VIN is in the first batch of the city-pack cars (and without being a city- pack car!). In this city-pack batch between 2275014-2275122 only a few CSLs were non city-pack cars, namely 2275029, 2275030, 2275039, 2275041, 2275051 and 2275121.

Remember at the time, once the city-pack was introduced, the CSL customer had to specially order the real light version. That's one reason why the non city-pack and really lightweight cars are pretty rare. Of course, a non city-pack CSL could be equipped with all other available options like power steering, second wing mirror, 55AH battery, rear heated window etc.

A combination of non-city pack car with factory steel doors must be pretty rare and I personally would rank such a CSL as high as the CSL lightweight (1165 kg) version.

There were country specific variations of the CSL like the Italian yellow/white turning signals, the Swedish headlight washers (74->) etc. Certainly there were specific specifications for the Swiss cars.

Cheers

 

[2275xxx]

As far as I know...
2275029, 2275030, 2275039 and 2275 051 were City-Packs.
and 2279030 was sold new in Italy.

 

[pmansson]

2275361

While on the subject of slightly different cars within the batches of CSLs...
This Golf CSL of mine was originally a FI car, sold new in Italy. It has steel skin doors, normal glass, black fibreglass rear bumper, large front spoiler (not original, but with original black paint behind).
Quick release bonnet locks (on alu bonnet with manual black stick to hold it open), alu boot lid with standard transversal opening springs, manual steering, manual windows and so on. Built on May 22, 1973, painted in Golf.

 

[CSL 1973]

Hi 2275xxx

You are perfectly right.

Due to BMW MT records also 2275029, 2275030, 2275039 and 2275 051 were city packs. This is also stated in the BMW MT part catalogue dated 7/73. However, my info comes from some of the owners of these cars and from pictures.

2275039 might be a city-pack car as it has the steel bumpers. I think also the 2275030 has the steel bumpers. 2275029 and 2275051 have no steel bumpers (or holes for them in the front) and no rear power windows etc (but there could be modifications done).

Interesting to note is that as from VIN 2275294 (7/73), BMW has difficult to confirm which cars were with or without city-pack. Among the first 294 cars in this VIN range (2275001-2275539), there were 154 cars with city-pack.

Cheers

 

[2275xxx]

Many City-Pack cars never had bumpers.

Many features can be misleading, and they cannot be used too certify 100% that a car is - or not - a city-pack or a lightweight:
Bonnet catches
Power steering
Power windows
Tool tray
etc...


What is common to all City-Packs is:

steel doors
csi dampers and stabilizers (with specific springs)
the reading lamp under the roof - not on the dashboard.

It is not too difficult to retrofit alloy doors or CSL-Bilstein suspensions.
More difficult to remove the ceiling lamp and change the headlining.

So the first thing I look at is the reading lamp - beside checking with the information available in the documents you mentionned.

There are probably extremely few really light cars above 2275294, if any.
I mean cars with ALL the light parts, including plexi rear windows and Glaverbel windscreen.

 

[pmansson]

2275361

Thanks for the solid information.
Were all FI cars equipped with the Stadtpakete attributes perhaps....?
No, it probably isn´t as easy as that.

As the car is in Sweden and I´m in Switzerland (came back 2 days ago), I cannot check, but I know that it has the upside down Bilsteins struts, does not have the holes in front for mounting the front bumper, has got the roof mounted interior light (but not by the mirror as the normal E9s. It is above the "B-post".
Rear quarterlights are glass, as is the rear heated window.
I will check the doors with a magnet the next time I see the car (but seem to remember from a check a few years back that they are the steel model).

 

[RogerB]

As far as I know...
2275029, 2275030, 2275039 and 2275 051 were City-Packs.
and 2279030 was sold new in Italy.

Per BMW Mobile Tradition,Group Archives, Andreas Harz

"The BMW 3.0 CSL VIN 2275030 was manufactured on September 21st, 1972 and delivered on January 3rd, 1973 to the swiss BMW importer MOTAG in Zurich-Dielsdorf. The original colour was Golf, paint code 070."

From my research:

1st owner since March 1973

Mr. Enrico Crippa (born 20 November 1953), profession: baker

Hauptstrasse 9

5734 Reinach

Switserland

Licenceplate: AG-142163

Mr. Crippa owned the car for 26 years. He sold it in 1999 to a dutch car dealer who sold it immediately to the Dutch 2nd owner who kept it for one year and sold it to the Dutch 3rd owner in 2000 who kept it until 2003 or 2004 when it was exported to the US.

The attached picture is from 2000 in the Netherlands. Note the light weight rear bumper, lack of front bumper, and Ronal wheels. A friend from The Nederlands Coupe Club researched this for me and says this is the way the CSL looks on the pictures (without front bumper, with split front spoilers and with the Ronal wheels) was the way it looked when Hendrik de Vries (2nd owner) bought and sold the car. He also says:"There's one thing about the BMW 3.0 CSL that I still have to find out. It is said that the Swiss and Swedish delivered CSLs had steel door panels and glass windows due to local laws."

The present steel bumpers were probably added to conform to DOT requirements?!!?

 

[jranmann]

and glass windows due to local laws."

and that would likely be tempered shatterproof glass at that...unlike the non-tempered glass in CS models up until about '72.

 

[2275xxx]

Per BMW Mobile Tradition,Group Archives, Andreas Harz

"The BMW 3.0 CSL VIN 2275030 was manufactured on September 21st, 1972 and delivered on January 3rd, 1973 to the swiss BMW importer MOTAG in Zurich-Dielsdorf.

Ooops, there seems to be a mistake in my records....

Note the light weight rear bumper, lack of front bumper, and Ronal wheels.

These Ronal wheels look very nice.
My bat (a Swiss car since 1977) had the same when I bought it.
Yes, it didn't look very tidy.
But it was a bat and I was so excited.

"There's one thing about the BMW 3.0 CSL that I still have to find out. It is said that the Swiss and Swedish delivered CSLs had steel door panels and glass windows due to local laws."

All the cars sold through the Swiss importer Motag were City-Packs.
If a swiss customer wanted a lightweight he had to import it directly from Germany.
Friedlin, the BMW dealership in Lörrach (across the border) sold at least three lightweight CSLs to Swiss customers.

 

[jranmann]

 

[CSL 1973]

Just for your info:

Due to my records, the following was the delivery of new CSLs to Switzerland:

1 (VIN range 2210-2211-2212)
20 (VIN range 2275001-2275429)
6 (VIN range 2275430-2275539)
1 (VIN range 4355001-4355057)

Cheers

 

[eastsideM3]

Per BMW Mobile Tradition,Group Archives, Andreas Harz

"The BMW 3.0 CSL VIN 2275030 was manufactured on September 21st, 1972 and delivered on January 3rd, 1973 to the swiss BMW importer MOTAG in Zurich-Dielsdorf. The original colour was Golf, paint code 070."

From my research:

1st owner since March 1973

Mr. Enrico Crippa (born 20 November 1953), profession: baker

Hauptstrasse 9

5734 Reinach

Switserland

Licenceplate: AG-142163

Mr. Crippa owned the car for 26 years. He sold it in 1999 to a dutch car dealer who sold it immediately to the Dutch 2nd owner who kept it for one year and sold it to the Dutch 3rd owner in 2000 who kept it until 2003 or 2004 when it was exported to the US.

The attached picture is from 2000 in the Netherlands. Note the light weight rear bumper, lack of front bumper, and Ronal wheels. A friend from The Nederlands Coupe Club researched this for me and says this is the way the CSL looks on the pictures (without front bumper, with split front spoilers and with the Ronal wheels) was the way it looked when Hendrik de Vries (2nd owner) bought and sold the car. He also says:"There's one thing about the BMW 3.0 CSL that I still have to find out. It is said that the Swiss and Swedish delivered CSLs had steel door panels and glass windows due to local laws."

The present steel bumpers were probably added to conform to DOT requirements?!!?

That car has the mounting brackets for the steel bumpers so it had them at some point. It also has a first series Alpina front spoiler. Ive seen some swiss batmobiles with steel bumpers. It looks very strange.

 

[RogerB]

From the messages above:

"In this city-pack batch between 2275014-2275122 only a few CSLs were non city-pack cars, namely 2275029, 2275030, 2275039, 2275041, 2275051 and 2275121."

"All the cars sold through the Swiss importer Motag were City-Packs."

So, my 2275030 is a "non city-pack City-Pack?!!?!? }:>)

 

[Yannick]

2275 XXX, you're right for city pack cars to Switzerland. They however did an exception with a carb CSL at some point. I believe the only and one carb CSL that has been sold to Switzerland.

As for the mounting brackets for 2275 330, this is right : either the car had stock 3.0 CS / CSi front bumpers or its (full) nose has been changed. I however would suppose it had the stock chrome bumpers, which also means it had the big rear chrome bumpers as no CSL has been delivered with the heavy front chrome bumpers and the light rear fiber glass bumper.

Regarding the Alpina front spoiler : this one is a bit strange as the "corners" are missing and it seems it has been cut ! Normally, the early Alpinafront spoiler sides / corners just fit with the chrome guards on the front wings.

 

[RogerB]

2275 XXX, you're right for city pack cars to Switzerland. They however did an exception with a carb CSL at some point. I believe the only and one carb CSL that has been sold to Switzerland.

As for the mounting brackets for 2275 330, this is right : either the car had stock 3.0 CS / CSi front bumpers or its (full) nose has been changed. I however would suppose it had the stock chrome bumpers, which also means it had the big rear chrome bumpers as no CSL has been delivered with the heavy front chrome bumpers and the light rear fiber glass bumper.

Regarding the Alpina front spoiler : this one is a bit strange as the "corners" are missing and it seems it has been cut ! Normally, the early Alpinafront spoiler sides / corners just fit with the chrome guards on the front wings.

I assume you meant 2275 030? Here is another view from 2000.