3.0 CSL is undervalued... 74 Porsche 911 Carrera RS 3.0 (RHD) for $600 000!

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Arde

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...recovered from the lakebed of the Lago Maggiore on the border of Switzerland and Italy. It had been submerged at 54 metres under the surface for nearly 75 years. Story has it that it was dropped there in 1936 to avoid paying duties on the Bugatti. At a sizeable expense it was brought back to the surface in 2009. In a very deteriorated condition it was offered with no reserve with the proceeds going to the 'Fondazione Damiano Tamagi.' Although it was estimated to sell for €70 - 90,000 the bidding did not stop until it reached a startling €260,500..."
Cheers

Brilliant plot. Defraud the tax man for breakfast, declare the loss and defraud the insurance company by lunch, keep in a fresh water lake for 74 years, find an American purchase it as tax deduction for his "museum", and attribute the proceeds to a "Foundation" so they are also tax free.

Supply and demand my foot. Uberexpensive items with inelastic curves (can't increase supply at any price) are ideal for money laundering. I bet there are more "swiss" angles here than the lake.

I am starting to suspect Ran's endless errand, the cabin in the mountains, the interstate hopping, his Woz alias...
 

jranmann

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I am starting to suspect Ran's endless errand, the cabin in the mountains, the interstate hopping, his Woz alias...

I just love it (Steve/Arde) when everyone's disembodied Spleen starts voicing silly concerns ...and unsubstantiated objections to logical reasoning only makes the fluid within start to boil more vigorously...oh and as usual, turn into rank steam upsettng the natives..

.......don't you?

:mrgreen:

Woz
 
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eastsideM3

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Did you just not read my post that you quoted? That's exactly what I said.



No it is NOT! And I would like to know what evidence you have that it is. Your average coupe (if you bought it new) doesn't even keep up with inflation. These are mass produced automobiles and hardly in limited numbers. The Ferrari GTO was produced in limited numbers. These coupes were produced in the thousands.




Umm, so what?

The evidence I have is coming from my own personal experience. Im not talking about holding a car from new, and Im not talking about all E9's like I pointed out in a previous post. The LW's and Bats were not mass produced. Your talking about maybe a little over 100 cars of the two still in existence. As the restored cars bring higher numbers the project cars creep up as well.
There has been signifcant appreciation in these specific cars in the last 10-12 years, close to double.
 

jranmann

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There has been signifcant appreciation in these specific cars in the last 10-12 years, close to double.

May I interject and just say that of late it appears that has fallen off significantly, say by half in real dollars US or otherwise?

Or is that relevant?
 

eastsideM3

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May I interject and just say that of late it appears that has fallen off significantly, say by half in real dollars US or otherwise?

Or is that relevant?

Not really and I dont need to defend the market because I dont own one (bat or LW), but I was aggresively looking for one over the last year and half thinking the market would go down as well.
The bat that sold at the Bonhams auction, which I wanted, and tried to get, went for good money just six or seven months ago? I also tried to get a first series LW car twice and came up short thinking the owner wouldnt be able to sell it for more than I offered. I was wrong twice.
I wasnt really following the market on town kit cars or CS, CSI's, so maybe thats a different story.
 

jranmann

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I agree and hence my hesitation to purchase a non-exciting, less exclusive model and then knowing my taste and preferences in a car have $40k tied up in a car valued at best at $20k. The difference will make my house payment for 10 years ...and that's the best security that kind of small change can buy.

On selling price, I look at a lot of cars when I am not here...I have noticed of late that many LW"s are going for around 30k and that appears to indicate the market has peaked again ..and might be down as much as 25%.... but of course it will rise again as speculators are a dime a dozen and with these cars it's wisely "driver be forewarned" consequently it's tricky to stay ahead of the game given the e9's power to persuede one to sell one's first born into slavery so that he can afford the next newest bolt-on item like in High School??? and we all know that merely brings on the angst of the SWIMBO and who really needs more of that?

I faced it and decided that even my DD of age and more than my 25 years old e24 the e9' is much more of a 'bitch priness' wearing 40 year old carboard, with all the faults and deficiencies that Heaven will allow under that finery that a pretty woman should be allowed to possess...and then some!
 

michael

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I can't agree more Tod.

I purchased my coupe not as an investment, but to drive and enjoy. If the value goes up or down is not my concern, as my value is derived from the sheer pleasure I obtain from driving an incredible machine.
 

blumax

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Prices of E-9's--even the CS

I'm chiming in here as there are so many who are offering or have offered valuation advice regarding our Coupes--who have never owned one--or have owned one that was in need of a lot of correction when purchased--but have never had experience in transacting a fine example properly sorted both cosmetically and mechanically.

As some residents on this site may be aware--my personal ownership experience now spans 38 continuous years--several including multiple ownership--and now over 500,000 seat miles in E-9's has given me some actual perspective and experience in this discourse--simply reporting--not blowing smoke.

Starting in the early 1990's I've helped more than one of our current board residents in entering the great experience of owning one--or three in the case of one friend--who is no longer a contributor.

Some of you know the condition and solid reputation of my largely original appearance wise--but mechanically upgraded BLUMAX--even after covering an E-9 record of over 400,000 miles--that is not a mis-print. In recent years I have used BLUMAX as a standard by which I inititially evaluate an available E-9. If it passes muster I may agree to take the car
"under my arm"--following is a thorough prepping to its best and highest state--no restoration--that's another rcent subject--but almost nothing is overlooked or neglected that either visibly requires cosmetic attention or mechanical correction from both critical inspection and spirited test drive(s) in the car.

Anyhow--through this process I have gained some first hand knowledge of the actual private sale values attributable to those I've personally prepared. My observation--there are several who are way off or out of touch with your expressed opinions of really good condition E-9 prices.

JMHO
 

jranmann

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The sage of e9 has spoken and need we hear any more speculation?

BLUMAX being a benchmark that I have used in my own mind (casual value $60,000 as stated by the owner himself) does not surprise me...one needs to really see and experience the car first hand and let Murray let you ride a few miles in it to fully understand the comparative difference between IT and all other coupes I have had the privilege to encounter since his generous offer to shepherd me into the 'clan' of the blessed spirit.

What I want to know is how the blue paint color can be so dark, so beautiful and yet so lively at the same time... on the metal under-skin that truly shows me the history of care and loving concern the owner (above) has lovingly shown over the past few decades?

Stunning doesn't even capture the true experience and I am a lucky man surely...

Thanks Murray...
 

CSL 1973

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As the OP of this thread, I think we can now summarise this issue.

There are mainly two groups of people when we talk about CSL values:

- Belivers to the positive CSL price evaluation

- Non-belivers to the positive CSL price evaluation

Both sides have had their say in this provocative thread and I think there were some interesting aspects here. What we have in common is that we enjoy driving and working with our E9 cars and that's the most important. I bought my first E9 in 1982 (price tag 1 900 euro) and decided not to buy CSL Bat 2275527 in 1982 (price tag 2 000 euro).

I don't see why there would be a problem to enjoy an E9 and at the same time know that the value of the car is going up. The positive price evaluation of E9 is a nice fact but I think for most of us here, the most important is to enjoy our cars.

Values of E9 goes up and down but it is a fact that the CSL is a collector 's car today. Top values for the CSL could be ranged in the following order:

CSL race versions (2276000-2275981)
CSL bat (2275430-2275539 and 4355001-4355057) and the 169 carb ones
CSL lightweight (1165 kg) 2275001-2275429
CSL city pack (2275001-2275429)
CSL RHD (2285001-2285500)

As always with reservations that this in only my own humble opinion.

Cheers
 

jranmann

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I don't see why there would be a problem to enjoy an E9 and at the same time know that the value of the car is going up.
Of course there's nothing wrong with that line of thinking... it's also very easy for me to accept that the seven thousand dollars I put into my e24 over the summer means it's someday to be recovered...who knows?

....and then tonight when she hummed up the hill in 4th at 4500 rpm smooth as silk, the suspension held firm and yet not TOO harshly I recall the real reason I like these cars and mine in particualar...and settled back into the manual (comfy) seats to enjoy the rest of the ride home....
 

chicane

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As the OP of this thread, I think we can now summarise this issue.

There are mainly two groups of people when we talk about CSL values:

- Belivers to the positive CSL price evaluation

- Non-belivers to the positive CSL price evaluation

There are two types of people:

- People that believe cars are an investment

- People that believe cars are NOT an investment

Anyone who has ever restore ANY car will tell you that chances are you will never get your money back out of that car and gauging the price of coupes from new, even the pristine low mileage examples do not even keep up with inflation.

Everyone should just just drive and enjoy your car and leave the cost subject up to your relatives after they inherit your car, because they are the only ones that will make money off of your car. :)
 

HB Chris

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There are two types of people:

- People that believe cars are an investment

- People that believe cars are NOT an investment

Anyone who has ever restore ANY car will tell you that chances are you will never get your money back out of that car and gauging the price of coupes from new, even the pristine low mileage examples do not even keep up with inflation.

Everyone should just just drive and enjoy your car and leave the cost subject up to your relatives after they inherit your car, because they are the only ones that will make money off of your car. :)

Chic,

Thanks for giving us the two categories that all owners fall into.
 

acat2002

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Investments?

I can't go a week without having to hear some tool's wisdom on the economy or stock market while in the locker room or similar place where men gather to assert their superior knowlege among eachother. This thread reminds me of just that and while I generally try to hold my opinions back because I'm rarely the smartest guy in the room, here we go anyway.

While I generally fall into Chic's category of purchasing cars not as an investment, but for enjoyment, there is evidence supporting the contrary insofar as we may be the minority opinion. Sales trends suggest that there's still plenty of willing buyers out there looking for "investments". Ridiculous IMO, but "don't fight the tape", as Wall Street says. Maybe it's time to make a bold call on the vintage car "bubble"?

http://www.hagerty.com/lifestyle/hobby_article.aspx?id=63544

As Chic mentioned, a very important component people forget is factoring inflation. I would also add that the "opportunity cost" of tying up working capital with assets that don't "earn" is never mentioned as well.

I think it is important to remember as I stated earlier, that as beautiful as our coupe are and in the case of true CSLs, RARE, the entire E9 series has yet to be regarded as an investment-grade collectable. That may change (I hope). I'd love to wake up at some future date and look into my garage knowing my garden-variety CS is worth north of $100k, that would be cool. I'd look like a genious.

My personal philosphy with buying cars (other than grocery-getters) is buy something that is special to YOU, hopefully unique, within the margins of your budget and lifestyle. Take care of your classic car, enjoy it and if you're lucky it won't depreciate. I probably would consider the probablility of DEPRECIATION though in that I'd really have to want a car badly to pay top-dollar at a high-point in it's value curve.

Anyone who ties up working capital (not play money) in collector cars with anticipation of return on investment may as well trade penny stocks as an investment philosphy. The same holds true for actual investment-grade cars like early Ferraris and P-cars. The people I know who own big-money examples buy these cars to "play with" and enjoy the bragging rights if/when they appreciate. Sometimes they sell when their car is "hot" and sometimes they see a ridiculous ROI. Sometimes they roll that money into a better example or whatever. That's not an investment philosophy at all, that's like going to Vegas. You think you can pick the next GTB/4 or early 911RS craze, then by all means knock yourself out trying! I just hope you haven't pegged your family's future on those profits.
 

dang

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There are two types of people:

- People that believe cars are an investment

- People that believe cars are NOT an investment

Hmmm, I'd have to say I'm in the group that believes they can be an investment, although I think its a very small market. If you're talking about using cars as a tool to make money, that's a different story. I've flipped probably 40 cars in my lifetime and made money on every single car. The only cars I don't make money on are the ones I use as daily drivers, which is expected when you buy them. Buying a car and expecting it to go up in value is doable, but very risky thinking.
 

acat2002

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I think Kevin Jennett is/was a member of this forum. That is a sweeeet car and they do some nice work down there in FL.
Though completely unrelated to coupes, I still salivate over early RSs. Any color combination.
Did it sell close to the $325k asking price? No matter, fantastic example, but is really only indicative of the demand for certain cars.
 

eastsideM3

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Yes I visited his facility. At the time maybe a year or two ago, he had the first or second RS off the production line in his warehouse. Price tag was 500K. Wonder if that one sold?
 
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