3.0 CSL is undervalued... 74 Porsche 911 Carrera RS 3.0 (RHD) for $600 000!

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eastsideM3

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The same could be said about the housing market. What about "Flip That House" and "House Hunters"? Those shows helped propel the housing market to higher and higher prices, ultimately ending in a crash. These shows put forth the idea that higher and higher returns were always possible in a short amount of time because there would always be a buyer willing to pay more. It's the "bigger fool" theory and I have seen it happen before in the collector car market. High dollar auctions like Barrett-Jackson and the like are spectacles in and of themselves, not representative of 99.5% of all cars out there for sale. BTW, it's concours, not concourse, but you knew that, right?



You are trying to establish a relationship between rarity and demand. There is not an inverse relationship between them. There are MANY cars that are as rare as they come and still cannot sell for as much as a 1957 Chevrolet, of which THOUSANDS were built. Just because production numbers are low does not automatically mean higher prices.

Look what happened to Beanie Babies...

However, on your last statement, what exactly do you mean?



What "type" of buyer is now buying these cars? I will grant you that a lot of mania was fueled by Baby Boomers tapping into HELOC's and such to buy their dream guitar, car, boat, etc. but those buyers are now tapped out (well their banks are anyhow).

In the late 1980's it was the Japanese that drove up the prices (which then crashed when Japan did and Japan still has not recovered their stock market and real estate losses).

Who is currently driving the prices up now, today, not last year, not four years ago, but right now?

Cmon, there is no relation to real estate speculators. Thats a whole different discussion. Out of the 100 or so cars in existence, how many CSL flippers are out there buying cars to flip them for a short term profit on bank loans? If you go back and read what I wrote I gave you three examples, one that went down as early as three months ago. Are you going to tell me the economy and overall psychology has gotten that much worse in three months, than say six or eight months ago, when every news publication's front page news was about the souring world?
There absolutely is a relationship between rarity and demand in the case of certain CSL's. The available cars currently for sale is proof, none!!!
Unless you can show me a recent sale that fits your arguement, your speculating as much as I am about future prices. Like I said, I dont see the same type of appreciation that weve seen in the last decade, but feel pretty comfortable saying someone who bought 6-10 years ago will remain in pretty good shape looking forward. I dont share your dooms day outlook so when you see a five thousand dollar restored coupe come up for sale, let me know!
 

acat2002

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I can't remember hearing a lot of chatter from CaddilacGreen on other "valuation" threads, but I wish you chimed in more often, Caddy. Agreed 100%!!! Amen, preach-it brotha...and so-forth.
Every one of those statements are correct.

Don't blast me for being anecdotal and not citing facts, but it really feels like there is a "bubble" for certain types of cars.

When prices decline and buyers are not as abundant, there will be a massive rush to exit. You don’t need to be the first guy out. Just…..don’t be the last guy in.
......and by "the last guy in", I mean buying a CSL or RS for $150+ today.
 

eastsideM3

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Wow, that is your compelling evidence. I watch Barret Jackson all the time and I have yet to see one E9 cross the block. But I have witnessed all other classic plummeting in price from two years ago (Just like it did in the mid-90's when vintage Ferrari prices plummeted). This whole idea of prices going up, up, up is ridiculous. And what doesn't the top 100 cars up for sale have to do with the E9, what do you think this is a Bugatti?

And I still haven't seen a link to your... ahem... B2-S.

Ok, buddy time to get off your parent's computer.... :D

Im quite sure you lent your expert advice on the thread concerning the Taiga batmobile that recently sold at Bonhams. I think that would qualify for a recent sale at auction wouldnt it??
Keep looking for the Alpina. Its not hard to find.
 

eastsideM3

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I can't remember hearing a lot of chatter from CaddilacGreen on other "valuation" threads, but I wish you chimed in more often, Caddy. Agreed 100%!!! Amen, preach-it brotha...and so-forth.
Every one of those statements are correct.

Don't blast me for being anecdotal and not citing facts, but it really feels like there is a "bubble" for certain types of cars.

When prices decline and buyers are not as abundant, there will be a massive rush to exit. You don’t need to be the first guy out. Just…..don’t be the last guy in.
......and by "the last guy in", I mean buying a CSL or RS for $150+ today.

There has already been a bubble created on a lot of collector cars, primarily muscle cars.
 

chicane

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No its on the registry. For someone like you thats so internet savvy and up on the current markets of all things collectible, it should be a breeze to find???

It's real simple provide the link or the VIN so everyone can gawk at your ride...
 

CadillacGreen

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Cmon, there is no relation to real estate speculators. Thats a whole different discussion. Out of the 100 or so cars in existence, how many CSL flippers are out there buying cars to flip them for a short term profit on bank loans?

You're missing my point. My point is that TV exposure made house flipping seem easy to many people and ultimately the "greater fool" premise came to pass in the housing market. The auctions being televised on TV have led to the same premise coming to pass in the collector car market. People felt that you couldn't lose money on a collector car because you could always send it to Barrett Jackson and sell it for a huge profit. What these TV shows never did was show the cars that come back through a second time with the second seller losing a vast sum of money. I recall a 1956 Dodge Custom Royal Golden Lancer D-500 model selling for $215,000 at BJ one year. The next year it was back and sold for $115,000. It is currently for sale for $159,000. What's the true market price? Three sales, one car, you tell me what the car is worth.

If the car doesn't sell at the asking price, then how can it be "worth" the asking price?

Secondly, the high housing prices and "drive by appraisals" led to HELOC's and equity withdrawals on a level NEVER seen before in recent times. Those "easy money" withdrawals led to people buying items they couldn't afford, with classic cars being one of those items. I saw this happen with vintage Gretsch guitars. Everyone wanted a 1957 Duo Jet just like George Harrison played and would pay any amount (of the bank's) money to get one. Prices rose beyond what the regular market would bear and prices are crashing now. Limited supply and "rare"? Certainly, and for a time, buyers outnumbered sellers, but no longer. If you bought a 1957 Duo Jet within the last 5 years for a significant chunk of change, chances are good you are going to lose money if you have to sell it anytime soon.

If you go back and read what I wrote I gave you three examples, one that went down as early as three months ago. Are you going to tell me the economy and overall psychology has gotten that much worse in three months, than say six or eight months ago, when every news publication's front page news was about the souring world?

Anecdotal sales are irrelevant. Sale prices kept climbing higher after the housing market in the U.S. had started to turn. One cannot see the downhill trend until AFTER it has passed.

There absolutely is a relationship between rarity and demand in the case of certain CSL's. The available cars currently for sale is proof, none!!!

By your reasoning then, CSL's are currently priceless!!! After all, according to you, there are NONE for sale (which I don't believe is the case, but that's another subject for debate!), so the current market rarity demands an astronomical price because they are unobtainable, right? Present marketplace availability is irrelevant to demand. If three show up for sale tomorrow (and it always seems like when one shows up, two or three show up right after by coincidence), does that mean the market is saturated? Of course not. I have collected cars FAR rarer than CSL's, and usually one or two per year show up for sale. Current market availability doesn't dictate their market price though for one simple reason, the pool of willing buyers is very small.

You, of course, are ignoring the fact that the pool of buyers, the number that will actually come forth with actual CASH at any given moment when one comes up, could be extremely small.

Time and again, you will see people say, "I want XXX", but when "XXX" is for sale, they don't have the money, refuse to pay the asking price (for whatever reason), or just really want to kick the tires.
 

adami

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Just took my 1 of 53 known in world depreciating really bad investment out for a nighttime mountain rip. It was awesome….....I mean ****ty.
 

eastsideM3

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You're missing my point. My point is that TV exposure made house flipping seem easy to many people and ultimately the "greater fool" premise came to pass in the housing market. The auctions being televised on TV have led to the same premise coming to pass in the collector car market. People felt that you couldn't lose money on a collector car because you could always send it to Barrett Jackson and sell it for a huge profit. What these TV shows never did was show the cars that come back through a second time with the second seller losing a vast sum of money. I recall a 1956 Dodge Custom Royal Golden Lancer D-500 model selling for $215,000 at BJ one year. The next year it was back and sold for $115,000. It is currently for sale for $159,000. What's the true market price? Three sales, one car, you tell me what the car is worth.

If the car doesn't sell at the asking price, then how can it be "worth" the asking price?

Secondly, the high housing prices and "drive by appraisals" led to HELOC's and equity withdrawals on a level NEVER seen before in recent times. Those "easy money" withdrawals led to people buying items they couldn't afford, with classic cars being one of those items. I saw this happen with vintage Gretsch guitars. Everyone wanted a 1957 Duo Jet just like George Harrison played and would pay any amount (of the bank's) money to get one. Prices rose beyond what the regular market would bear and prices are crashing now. Limited supply and "rare"? Certainly, and for a time, buyers outnumbered sellers, but no longer. If you bought a 1957 Duo Jet within the last 5 years for a significant chunk of change, chances are good you are going to lose money if you have to sell it anytime soon.



Anecdotal sales are irrelevant. Sale prices kept climbing higher after the housing market in the U.S. had started to turn. One cannot see the downhill trend until AFTER it has passed.



By your reasoning then, CSL's are currently priceless!!! After all, according to you, there are NONE for sale (which I don't believe is the case, but that's another subject for debate!), so the current market rarity demands an astronomical price because they are unobtainable, right? Present marketplace availability is irrelevant to demand. If three show up for sale tomorrow (and it always seems like when one shows up, two or three show up right after by coincidence), does that mean the market is saturated? Of course not. I have collected cars FAR rarer than CSL's, and usually one or two per year show up for sale. Current market availability doesn't dictate their market price though for one simple reason, the pool of willing buyers is very small.

You, of course, are ignoring the fact that the pool of buyers, the number that will actually come forth with actual CASH at any given moment when one comes up, could be extremely small.

Time and again, you will see people say, "I want XXX", but when "XXX" is for sale, they don't have the money, refuse to pay the asking price (for whatever reason), or just really want to kick the tires.

I understand completely what your saying, but I dont agree with you in the case of certain cars. We havent seen what your saying "yet" in the specialty CSL market so again it remains to be seen. Sor far there seeems to be decent demand for these cars with numerous websites and specialty restorers who remain open for business in the states, one of which just started restoration on the carb CSL that sold for a whopping 125K. For what its worth these cars could still be undervalued among people who can afford them.
I dont really care to discuss this any further, I hope Im right and your wrong, but it remains to be seen. Enjoy your coupe.
 

CookeD

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You guys are arguing with an anonymous narcissist who doesn't even have a horse in the race.

Also, all of those posting opinions need to remember that many of these cars, regardless of CSL, P-car, Ferrari, or whatever, change hands privately. So, when posting opinions, please try to remember that you really don't know everything.

And please, don't mention "assets" such as guitars, unless you're going to include a discussion about reissues, and their market impact. Just another example of posting partial information to substantiate a point.
 

chicane

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I dont really care to discuss this any further,

THEN DON'T! You come on this board, a newb, you obviously don't own a coupe so you have no idea what the parts situation is like or the rust situation. And then to top it off you denigrate my coupe (that was really rich). You painted yourself in a corner and in an attempt to save face you kept arguing a nonsensical point. You might want to consider taking a breather then coming back and apologizing to the membership for your impertinence.
 

CookeD

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THEN DON'T! You come on this board, a newb, you obviously don't own a coupe so you have no idea what the parts situation is like or the rust situation. And then to top it off you denigrate my coupe (that was really rich). You painted yourself in a corner and in an attempt to save face you kept arguing a nonsensical point. You might want to consider taking a breather then coming back and apologizing to the membership for your impertinence.


Wow. This is interesting...
 

eastsideM3

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You guys are arguing with an anonymous narcissist who doesn't even have a horse in the race.

Also, all of those posting opinions need to remember that many of these cars, regardless of CSL, P-car, Ferrari, or whatever, change hands privately. So, when posting opinions, please try to remember that you really don't know everything.

And please, don't mention "assets" such as guitars, unless you're going to include a discussion about reissues, and their market impact. Just another example of posting partial information to substantiate a point.

I assume your responding to Chicane in your first paragraph. As for your other statements, you're right, and really a big part of what Ive been pointing out all along. I wasnt giving anyone an opinion, just feedback from the research I did over two years in my search to find a car.
As for this website, Ive never met such a group of negative people who are on an enthusiasts board to bash their own brand in my life. Its amazing people with no insight have such strong opinions against someone who offers credible information.
 
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