BMW E9 - 3D scanning models of body(parts)

Krzysztof said:
Car body could be useful to model some modifications of the car for project reasons (wider body, spoilers, colors etc)
Similar story might apply to engine compartment (e.g. different engine).
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Yes, radically changing things is a case where it's easier to work with digital information first. This guy posts on Youtube under superfastmatt and is pretty entertaining. His current project is putting a Tesla 3 drive train in a 1950 Jaguar sedan. He has found relatively low rez scanning to be helpful. I think it's a good cost/benefit ratio.


 
xjan99 said:
cheapest I have seen for NOS front fender is I think 1500 and looking at WN other parts prices I would no expect new repros to cost less :). I think BMW classic advertised at some point a price ca. 2500 per fender if they start production again. Not sure
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I sold my 30yo NOS outer fenders over the summer for $2,500 per side. That has been the going rate for several years now. They don’t jump off the shelves. The comps that I see in Germany have well aged listings.

People like the idea of new fenders, but don’t like the price tag (myself included). 8 could certainly have used them on my project, but it is more cost effective for me to repair mine. I can’t imagine that W&N could ever get them below $1,500 per side. I don’t think a one-off shop could beat that price either.
 
About 15 years ago my engineering company (sold years ago) 3D scanned an E9. We also scanned a 1:18 Batmobile scale model GP2 car. By matching the scale and blending the files we were ready to produce patterns for moulding flare kits. At that stage it made sense to buy a kit from existing moulds such as Zaprace, so it was not economic to pursue. However, the point is, once you scan a point cloud, its a great archive to have, so getting an entire E9 scanned and filed would be excellent. As an example, we had another situation where a J2 Allard was badly damaged in the front. From scan data of another car at a different location a pattern (buck) was able to be made from MDF, aluminium panels beaten to shape and welded together to fabricate a new front, all compound curves. Other automotive related work was executed from scan data such as a pattern to mould a glass windshield, and scanning a scale model of a Ford GT 40, blowing it up to 1;1 then producing patterns for moulds in a replica build.
And so it goes on, so in short I hope someone takes on a full scale scan and archives an E9 albeit in a point cloud, it may have applications in the future we haven't even considered.
 
We can be sure, E9 has already been 3D scanned many times. And not only the body but also other parts.

How it than relates to the initial proposal?

What kind of solution should be selected?

Should the 3D models be available only for members or donors or widely available like E9 3D wiki?

From hobbyist point of view it would be the best to have all widely available?
But is it common?
Is the free access to 3D files a danger for small companies producing some parts for E9 or rather not?

Who would assure that such a model would be in the best quality?

Many question one can't answer.

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As a side comment about the fender. I know that there are tries to make them available (not only W&N). It is just a question of time. Other body parts will also appear in some time as a repair panels. If there will be a time when all body parts will be for sale? Hard to say. We might not be able to live to that time probably. :D
 
Krzysztof said:
As a side comment about the fender. I know that there are tries to make them available (not only W&N). It is just a question of time. Other body parts will also appear in some time as a repair panels. If there will be a time when all body parts will be for sale? Hard to say. We might not be able to live to that time probably. :D
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At this point, I think every single body panel for the split window VW Bus, '67 and earlier, is being reproduced. Total production for all variants of the Type II VW is 1,960,542. Price points for restored vehicles are on par with our E9. But without a large enough number of cars needing parts to help amortize the cost of developing the means of producing large panels, we may have to make do with smaller patch panels.
 
Just my 2 cents: try to fund it with a kind of crowdfunding, there should be several pages online for this (Kickstarter?). If 2500$ come together, make the 3d Scans Open source available for every funder and every one/forum member that spends something for this forum to keep it running.
If the money does not come together, everyone get there money back.

Most of the people don’t want to spend huge amounts for this, because they don’t benefits from this. But I think most E9 owners will spend easy 5-10$ for this to support the community.
 
I think crowdsourcing may be a good option, sharing the 3d file.

Any lawyers here that can comment on if BMW can kill such an initiative?
If no money is earned, is it then still critical?

I would easily spend 100 euro/usd, as it will save a lot of work+ it will make working on my (your) car much easier.
It would allow to check if your car is off/dented/skewed, and after a repair you can check how accurate you have worked .

Do we have a description on the level of detail of the model and which components are included?

I for one would like to be able to measure if my chassis legs are not too high or low, and if my fenders are welded on correctly: not too narrow or wide; not too high or low, not skewed etc. As I will be chopping them off, I could correct it if they were mounted wrong by the previous Owner.
 
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mulberryworks said:
At this point, I think every single body panel for the split window VW Bus, '67 and earlier, is being reproduced. Total production for all variants of the Type II VW is 1,960,542. Price points for restored vehicles are on par with our E9. But without a large enough number of cars needing parts to help amortize the cost of developing the means of producing large panels, we may have to make do with smaller patch panels.
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I totally agree. That is for sure.

It is also a question mark if 3D scan can really help to make a new body panel. Fiber glass maybe.

For sure verification Erik mention makes sense but there are still question about details. Crowd finding seems to be the best option to go with.

As I have mentioned earlier, high quality parts requires several hundreds thousands $/Euro where location is not really helping to go make them good and cheap.

For today, for people who really are in need, still many parts can be bought (NOS or cut from E9). But the price is typically multiplication unit of 1kEUR and such a language is used between professional shops.

Many skilled/professional body shops in Poland are making parts by themselves for the repairs they're doing. Most of the parts can be replicated with basic body tools and even E9 fenders are not the end of the world for skilled person.

@xjan99
Let us know if you will be considering any crowdfunding idea. Might be some of us here would be happy to support it.
 
Once the scan is in the public domain they can pound sand, trying to get pandora back in the box. The public backlash could be substantial if they actually went after anyone or group. It's something they should be doing to preserve their heritage... My 2 cents
 
mulberryworks said:
Yes, radically changing things is a case where it's easier to work with digital information first. This guy posts on Youtube under superfastmatt and is pretty entertaining. His current project is putting a Tesla 3 drive train in a 1950 Jaguar sedan. He has found relatively low rez scanning to be helpful. I think it's a good cost/benefit ratio.


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I have the POP scanner if anyone in the Seattle area wants to try it
 
tferrer said:
Once the scan is in the public domain they can pound sand, trying to get pandora back in the box. The public backlash could be substantial if they actually went after anyone or group. It's something they should be doing to preserve their heritage... My 2 cents
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Well, Daimler-Benz has trademarked the design of the 300SL Gullwing cars. If anyone makes one and tries to sell it, they will try to confiscate it as copyright infringement and they will crush it. Or at least they will threaten to do this as they have done it before. Will BMW follow suit? That seems less likely as MB has been much more supportive of their vintage heritage than BMW.

www.motortrend.com

Crushed: Mercedes-Benz Destroys 300 SL Gullwing Copy

To show that it takes intellectual property rights seriously, Mercedes-Benz has destroyed a replica of the company's 300 SL body.
www.motortrend.com www.motortrend.com
 
What will they crush. Some digital files? Some qtr panels... IF they can prove they were made from digital scans? People are digitally scanning lots of parts to repair old Ferraris etc and no ones coming after them. I think scanning parts to reproduce for restorations is very different than making full copies of cars for sale..
 
tferrer said:
What will they crush. Some digital files? Some qtr panels... IF they can prove they were made from digital scans? People are digitally scanning lots of parts to repair old Ferraris etc and no ones coming after them. I think scanning parts to reproduce for restorations is very different than making full copies of cars for sale..
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Yes, I agree that making individual body panels is some distance from making and selling entire cars. I'm certainly not an Intellectual Property attorney so I can't say where this would fall, indeed, sometimes this must be resolved in the courts.

My guess is that making a scan would be fine, it's a bit more specific than taking a photograph but practically speaking isn't much different. It's the producing of physical parts for BMWs cars where they might see this as infringing on their Intellectual Property. A forum member made some 3D printed dash parts and had to alter the posted description to avoid the implication that what he was selling was a BMW created part vs a part for a BMW. So BMW Corporate does care about the perception of their image to some extent.

Making parts that aren't E9 specific would seem to be no issue. Starters, bearings, even brake pads, etc. The making parts that are clearly unique to Vintage BMW E9 for profit is the question. Scan all you want, they could be useful in confirming that remedial bodywork has been done well. It's the production of body parts and the profit from their sale that could get Corporate involved. Hence, the usefulness of these proposed scans are in question for potential business users. A cautious business owner would like to have clear guidance from BMW before committing any funds for such a project.
Just my 2¢.
 
tferrer said:
What will they crush. Some digital files? Some qtr panels... IF they can prove they were made from digital scans? People are digitally scanning lots of parts to repair old Ferraris etc and no ones coming after them. I think scanning parts to reproduce for restorations is very different than making full copies of cars for sale..
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They will crush your enthusiasm. BMW issued a cease and desist when I published my AC side vents on Shapeways.com. Then again when I posted the file for free on thingiverse.com.

8540CD60-0F17-4EF9-A676-5C20B1E391A2.jpeg


AC064740-281A-4656-9958-2FC4A5821B82.jpeg
 
Markos said:
They will crush your enthusiasm. BMW issued a cease and desist when I published my AC side vents on Shapeways.com. Then again when I posted the file for free on thingiverse.com.
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That's really sad as most of the parts people are reproducing from the reason they just can't buy OEM part. Most of us here would like OE BMW part instead of any print/repro.

Was the problem in the "BMW" word maybe?

I know it is a history, but what if it would be just "3.0 Coupe" without any mentionig "BMW". They should not laverage that. It is sure that such a printed part is not an exact copy and it was created by designing it, not copying ( as far as remember).

There are so many copies.

Even in China they're selling brand-specific parts worldwide on eBay or Amazon... I'm sure they pay noting to the OEM.
 
mulberryworks said:
Well, Daimler-Benz has trademarked the design of the 300SL Gullwing cars. If anyone makes one and tries to sell it, they will try to confiscate it as copyright infringement and they will crush it. Or at least they will threaten to do this as they have done it before. Will BMW follow suit? That seems less likely as MB has been much more supportive of their vintage heritage than BMW.

www.motortrend.com

Crushed: Mercedes-Benz Destroys 300 SL Gullwing Copy

To show that it takes intellectual property rights seriously, Mercedes-Benz has destroyed a replica of the company's 300 SL body.
www.motortrend.com www.motortrend.com
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This is not only German Car Makers ... There is a huge rush for that case:

Jaguar sues and wins against a home built replica (Sweden)

Pretty sad when a person can't build a replica in his home garage. This ruling could have wider implications for replica builders. https://www.gofundme.com/f/sup...;utm_source=customer
www.speedsterowners.com www.speedsterowners.com
 
Yes, the Jaguar story is very illuminating. Being owned by a large foreign conglomerate means they don't have a real connection with the owners of their vintage cars. They see the heritage of the old cars as a way to keep brand awareness alive in a way their new soulless production cars don't. They took on a retired couple who loved Jags and made a replica racer themselves to complete their collection rather than one of the many shops that have made reproduction cars, some for Jaguar themselves because they figured they would easily win the case and set a precedent. One commenter to the article above said:

If you will recall the suit " Shelby vs. Factory Five Racing " , Shelby lost for the sole reason that the Replica Cobras were produced for decades by other companies and FFR. Shelby never went after them and even confirmed their existence by signing them " for a fee " then decided to sue and lost.

We can use "Xerox" and "Kleenex" generically because they didn't defend their IP. Shelby lost their case for the same reason. Laws are different in Europe, so our cases may not have any bearing but I hope the couple could win on appeal.

Regardless, I have no doubt that BMW is a large corporation who's allegiance lies with their owners and stock holders, not the likes of you and I. They may not support the old cars like we would want, but they don't want amateurs muddling the brand image. Look at the prohibition of car clubs from using the BMW roundel in their newsletters. The fight over Intellectual Property has just begun. As corporations start to realize there is great value in their history, and the nostalgia they can generate around it, they will defend it more aggressively going forward. Especially since it's increasingly easy to find IP violations. Web bots crawl the internet continuously making it a matter of a few keystrokes to find results. Sure, they have to dedicate resources to follow up, but those aren't even a rounding error for the big guys, but for a couple in Sweden, it meant the sale of their cherished car collection and possibly the lost of their house. Just business as far as corporate is concerned. I wouldn't want to be in their position, and that's just what the big boys want me to feel.
 
About 15 years ago I embarked on building a Calder Art Car replica. I contacted BMW Motorsport and discussed copyright around this. They told me, no problem, copy away any of our old race cars, paint them with motorsport stripes if you wish. They were supportive in their attitude. However, they said I needed to contact the Calder Foundation about the Art Car as the artwork was owned/ administered by the foundation. I did this, they wrote back saying "not allowed", but they did allow a replica to be built in the UK at that time as a "one off". I recall that this was due to some personal contact and "friend" of the Calder foundation that this happened (as quoted to me by them). So I painted mine in stripes. Soon after a Calder copy was built in Australia (RHD), I saw that advertised for sale and wondered how they got away with that. I noticed that the same car soon after was repainted in Motorsport stripes.... .

I wonder if big business forget that the very people they courted, had them take franchise in their brand and enable their corporate financial success, are the same people who often are the guardians of their heritage through the preservation, repair and reproduction of their classic branded vehicles?

(Their lawyers probably drive Hyundai).
 
A small update. I am not that vary about copyright issues for the time being, as we are talking about scans not products made. However, 15 years ago I was involved in a car parts business and we were reselling some fiberglass styling kits. They were copies of original Rieger, Seidl etc tuner's parts. When we had them listed initially on our website as "Rieger BMW E30 sidekirt" for instance we, at one point, got a letter from Rieger. We had to change that to "Rieger style" and in some cases I think we just left out their brand name. There are already many panels/parts made - Tloznia for instance. And the E30 M3 parts by E30 Garage... WN does not sell only OEM parts too etc.

I had a chat with a Chinese car body panels (sheetmetal stamping) company too. An estimate cost for molds for instance for front fenders (pair) is ca. 200-300KUSD. And this is for low volume molds, still capable of producing 500-800 parts.

I did google a bit for a gofund me etc sites. I am from EU, Estonia so did not find a suitable one quickly. I am more than happy, if some of the forum's long-term members would set it up too.
 
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