Well, the only simple explanation would be that the input and output side of the fuse board are swapped. The lights should be on the INPUT side, the same as the Battery. Your test shows they are on opposite sides.
Melted Ground Wires & Fuse Nº 4 problem
- Thread starter EuroE9
- Start date
Headlights are not fused, the fuse block distributes power from battery to light switch on input side of fuse block.
- Without turning the key, only works position 1 (Fuse 4 ok).
- Turning the key but without starting the motor Position 1 and 2 works perfect (Fuse 4 ok).
- Motor running but not moving, Position 1 and 2 works perfect (Fuse 4 ok).
- Moving the car Position 1 works perfect (Fuse 4 ok).
- As soon as a put position 2 with the car moving (few seconds) Fuse 4 Blows
But d
All cables and its positions are as the Owner handbook explain....
The red/white cables are in out position and the reds (Batery and light) are input.....
But, did you see the last photos??
All cables and its positions are as the Owner handbook explain....
The red/white cables are in out position and the reds (Batery and light) are input.....
It must be something within the headlights, or the light switch.... I believe... Because it only happens when these are operated...
You have a white Bosch fuse at position #4, white is rated for 8A circuits.
The stock euro headlights are 55W bulbs, so 110W for two, that is 110W/12V=9.15 Amps so you are already exceeding the fuse rating. Why motion takes it over the hump? I do not know, maybe because the load shading relay is also on that circuit. Maybe because the fuse is so hot and brittle at 9 Amp that vibration cuts it.
In any case the pictures do not help me see what side is Input vs Output, the electrical circuit between the Input and Middle posts is what matters, and if somebody messed that up you would have the symptoms you see.
Again, the crux is that the headlights should work even when you remove fuse #4. Everything else is commentary.
Very good troubleshooting. Since it's easy, you might try turning the ignition on without starting and tap or shake all the components on the headlight circuit. You're trying to recreate the vibration/movement of driving.
but according to the manual, fuse 4 must have an 8 Amp fuse and according to what you say, all the E9s in Europe should have problems because their lights exceed 8 Amp.... on the other hand, what you say that the lights should work without fuse number four, I don't understand why….. Fuse 4 goes to the light switch on the left of the steering wheel and without that switch the lights don't get the connection, so if you remove the fuse 4 the switch is disabled.
Forgive me Arde but I don’t understand how lights are going to stay on if you disable the fuse between the switch and the lights.
The only thing I remember that is relevant related to the lights is that my mechanic, before taking the car to the technical inspection of the vehicle (ITV is Spain) told me that one of the headlights worked randomly, intermittently.
So he took the headlight apart and put a small piece of copper in it for the bulb to make a connection to its bracket, and that's it.
I don't know if that could be relevant when fuse 4 is blowing when the vehicle is moving only, however I will try to remove the bulbs and connect the lights again to see if fuse 4 blows again while driving.
Unplug the bad headlight and retest.
The point Chris and myself are trying to make is that the headlights are not fused. The headlight switch gets 12V from the input side of the fuse that connects to the battery. 8A is fine because the headlight current does not go through the fuse, it is just wired to the 12V post. The fact that removing the fuse shuts the light down IMHO is the root of the problem.
Unless of course somebody wanted to fix that design flaw, changed the fuse block, and then rightly increased the rating of the fuse. That is my theory, somebody wanted a fuse in the path because otherwise you can melt the wires or the headlight switch.
Ok, I understand know, so even taking the fuse 4 out, the light switch and the light itself should work because fuse 4 is only to control the power that goes to the fuse out terminals ( interior light, hazard flashers, glove box light, etc).
but then, where is this peak power that burn the fuse 4 coming from?…. Only when the car is moving…. .
maybe the voltage regulator relay?…
mext thing I will try is to disconnect headlights and test, then, unplug one by one all connections from fuse 4 out and try again.
but as you and Chris very kindly Explained, is not normal that taking fuse 4 away current stop from going to the headlights because this fuse should not have this current to feed the headlights.
thank you so much, I understand.
Will do next and keep you updated. Thank you very much.
this is why,…some posts before…
the input side of the fuse gives direct conection for 177 to 33, that is batt+
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Yes!
That is a nice puzzle we will figure out next, but 8A is so marginal you should maybe use a 12A fuse to be fair.
There is a case to be made that the headlight current is slightly proportional to revs as the voltage increases a bit with revs, but you should be able to cause the fuse blow by revving to 4k rpm at idle even without moving...
Motion suggests vibration induces a short somewhere (I had that happen on the blinker circuit...) but trying a 12A fuse
will tell you if it is load or short. Dan's suggestion to rattle the fuse by tapping it instead of motion is excellent.
If the 8A fuse blows due to the aggregate load this experiment will be inconclusive. The straw that breaks the camel back is not the problem, it is the sum of all the straws...
Pull your headlight switch and check the wires. It is a common cause of failure in the 2002s and, I suspect, the e9s. I have found that even if the hi/lo beams were both protected by relays, the switches have been overloaded at some point and the wiring fails. Here is a pic of what the headlight switch wires looked like in the '`74.
Attachments
this might be worth a check:
always mr wise camel (AKA @Arde ) has something interesting to say, sometimes he is right, else at least he makes you think twice....
look:
and then:
if you look at the explanation you can see how Carlos marked the circuit of the fuses,
but,....
is it correct ?
fuse circuits are arranged in this fashion
it might be worth a check...
always mr wise camel (AKA @Arde ) has something interesting to say, sometimes he is right, else at least he makes you think twice....
look:
and then:
But d
But, did you see the last photos??
View attachment 138149
All cables and its positions are as the Owner handbook explain....
View attachment 138150View attachment 138151
The red/white cables are in out position and the reds (Batery and light) are input.....
if you look at the explanation you can see how Carlos marked the circuit of the fuses,
but,....
is it correct ?
fuse circuits are arranged in this fashion
it might be worth a check...
Hello everyone,
I'm at the office today, but as soon as I get home I'll check.
For now, checking the photos I took yesterday and didn't upload to the forum since I only uploaded the ones I thought were most relevant (not entirely), now you'll see why... this is what I have found.
One thing that I appreciate that is very successful and of great help in this car is the coding of the wiring system, something that I did not understand or at least it did not make me stop to think, was the coding on the back of the fuse panel and its correspondence with the coding of the cables.
Until now, what I had checked was the number of wires, their colors and their position on the rear panel of the fuse box (differentiating between upper, middle or lower), but as I can see in the image that @deQuincey shows, in Fuse 4 would only have two blocks, the upper one, with two connection paddles for red cables and the lower one, with three paddles for red/white cables.... Well, taking this into consideration and reviewing yesterday's images, I think that I can indicate with more or less certainty that, indeed, the red cable of the battery is connected in the red/white zone (OUT) which is incorrect.
In the attached images you can see little but you can see, at least, that the cable that has a 2.5 section of the battery is connected in the red/white area of the rear panel.
The only two modifications (at the electrical level) that were made to the car were two:
Now I understand that the 8-amp fuse would not accept this situation, precisely because of the calculation that @Arde indicated (55W bulbs, so 110W for two, that is 110W/12V=9.15 Amps).
I only want to specifically thank Arde and Chris for pointing me in the right direction, deQuincey, of course, for the image of the fuse box and the private support he has given me and in general all the colleagues for putting their shoulders to the wheel and showing so much interest and perseverance in solving this problem of mine.
I still don't want to claim victory, I don't like to sell the bear skin before hunting it (poor bear, I would never hunt any animal) but I am very excited to see that there really was something that was not well configured in the installation and that it could be the origin of the problem.
I think the turning point has been, as @Arde pointed out: "The headlights should work even when you remove fuse #4."
This afternoon when I get home I will check the connections in detail and keep you informed.
And again, thank so much to all.
I'm at the office today, but as soon as I get home I'll check.
For now, checking the photos I took yesterday and didn't upload to the forum since I only uploaded the ones I thought were most relevant (not entirely), now you'll see why... this is what I have found.
One thing that I appreciate that is very successful and of great help in this car is the coding of the wiring system, something that I did not understand or at least it did not make me stop to think, was the coding on the back of the fuse panel and its correspondence with the coding of the cables.
Until now, what I had checked was the number of wires, their colors and their position on the rear panel of the fuse box (differentiating between upper, middle or lower), but as I can see in the image that @deQuincey shows, in Fuse 4 would only have two blocks, the upper one, with two connection paddles for red cables and the lower one, with three paddles for red/white cables.... Well, taking this into consideration and reviewing yesterday's images, I think that I can indicate with more or less certainty that, indeed, the red cable of the battery is connected in the red/white zone (OUT) which is incorrect.
In the attached images you can see little but you can see, at least, that the cable that has a 2.5 section of the battery is connected in the red/white area of the rear panel.
The only two modifications (at the electrical level) that were made to the car were two:
- The first was the matter of the front fog lamps, which has already been located and neutralized.
- The second was the connection of another radio different from the factory one, which had different electrical connections, this is what I found when I started trying to solve the problems with the burnt cables. This connection was made from the (40 Plud connector II) to power the radio and the antenna motor. Of course, I disconnected it and tried to leave it as it should be before the modification, but the doubt remains that due to this modification, the (33 battery +) cable was changed in the fuse 4 back area, changing it from its input (original ) to the output (current position). Probably this has nothing to do but here is my doubt.
Now I understand that the 8-amp fuse would not accept this situation, precisely because of the calculation that @Arde indicated (55W bulbs, so 110W for two, that is 110W/12V=9.15 Amps).
I only want to specifically thank Arde and Chris for pointing me in the right direction, deQuincey, of course, for the image of the fuse box and the private support he has given me and in general all the colleagues for putting their shoulders to the wheel and showing so much interest and perseverance in solving this problem of mine.
I still don't want to claim victory, I don't like to sell the bear skin before hunting it (poor bear, I would never hunt any animal) but I am very excited to see that there really was something that was not well configured in the installation and that it could be the origin of the problem.
I think the turning point has been, as @Arde pointed out: "The headlights should work even when you remove fuse #4."
This afternoon when I get home I will check the connections in detail and keep you informed.
And again, thank so much to all.
Good progress!
I would not close the books on this just yet.
If fuse #4 is the only one with Input and Output side inverted, then this was done deliberately and I would keep this as an improvement, with a 12A fuse or so, and test that motion does not blow fuse.
If many or all fuses have their Input Output inverted then somebody very incompetent worked on this car, find his name and address, move as far away from that person, perhaps a different continent.
I was not aware such documentation for the fuse block layout, colors, and numbers existed. That is all DQ and his detective spirit, he is capable of finding E9 documents at the Archivos de Indias in Sevilla...
I would not close the books on this just yet.
If fuse #4 is the only one with Input and Output side inverted, then this was done deliberately and I would keep this as an improvement, with a 12A fuse or so, and test that motion does not blow fuse.
If many or all fuses have their Input Output inverted then somebody very incompetent worked on this car, find his name and address, move as far away from that person, perhaps a different continent.
I was not aware such documentation for the fuse block layout, colors, and numbers existed. That is all DQ and his detective spirit, he is capable of finding E9 documents at the Archivos de Indias in Sevilla...
CONFIRMED!!!
The 2.5mm section battery cable is connected to the output zone (red/white zone) instead of the input zone (red zone).
Now I have questions, let's see what you think:
1.- @Arde, As you indicated, you would leave the cable at the OUTPUT (Red/White Zone) and increase the amperage of the fuse, and this would be an improvement for the car. Correct me if I misunderstood,….. by the way, I believe the battery cable {33) is the only one swapped, the rest of cables of fuse #4 are in the correct position
Why would this be an upgrade to the car instead of putting the cable back in its original place?
2.- Could the change in the position of this cable be related to a battery drainage problem?
3.- Do you think that if I make the change to the original INPUT could have battery drainage, and if so, how can I check if that is happening?
This weekend with more time I will check that the rest of the cables are in their original position or have also been changed as @Arde indicated as posible case scenario.
Thanks a lot for all your support.
The 2.5mm section battery cable is connected to the output zone (red/white zone) instead of the input zone (red zone).
Now I have questions, let's see what you think:
1.- @Arde, As you indicated, you would leave the cable at the OUTPUT (Red/White Zone) and increase the amperage of the fuse, and this would be an improvement for the car. Correct me if I misunderstood,….. by the way, I believe the battery cable {33) is the only one swapped, the rest of cables of fuse #4 are in the correct position
Why would this be an upgrade to the car instead of putting the cable back in its original place?
2.- Could the change in the position of this cable be related to a battery drainage problem?
3.- Do you think that if I make the change to the original INPUT could have battery drainage, and if so, how can I check if that is happening?
This weekend with more time I will check that the rest of the cables are in their original position or have also been changed as @Arde indicated as posible case scenario.
Thanks a lot for all your support.