My E9 burns about 1 quart of oil every tank of gas -should i use Moly E.P.?

[scottevest]

That makes perfect sense

So assuming below is correct, how safe is it to drive and how long can I drive it without repairs, a approx how much to fix

Doesn't sound good IMHO

I paid mechanic $5k before picking up car to fix all known problems

I still love the car but bummed

It almost seems like you could have both - worn valves and a cracked head or head gasket - I had this symptom on my first coupe - the reason it stops smoking after it warms up is that the crack seals shut from the metal expansion and opens back up after it cools back down. If you're losing coolant and it's not leaking out then it's being burned in the cylinder. In the morning while it is smoking a lot put a paper towel in the way of the steam until damp - then see if smells like coolant.

 

[Stevehose]

If you have no coolant in the oil (chocolate milkshake) or no oil in the coolant, then it seems that you wouldn't be damaging it too much by driving but I am not certain. Seems like coolant is getting in from the water jacket to the cylinder (but not into the oil) either from a leaking gasket or crack in the head. SFDon or 61Porsche would know. Head gasket is certainly less expensive than a head replacement or repair but others here could tell you what an approx cost would be. Also after it smokes in the am for a little while - pull the plugs and see if you can find which cylinder its is from the plug residue.

So assuming below is correct, how safe is it to drive and how long can I drive it without repairs, a approx how much to fix

 

[61porsche]

Guys,

You're thinking too much. Run the car for 1000 miles, take two asprin, change the oil twice, and then tell me there's a problem or symtom. A car that's used infrequently builds up crap from sitting, etc.It takes a while for all that to come out. Run it.

For example, today 7:30 am, starting out at a cool 92 degrees here in Houston to take one of the kids to school- water vapor upon start up! ( aka- white smoke) I'm not burning any oil, there is black carbon from the choke on my carbs and all this is quite normal. A FI car or modern has a computer. That's the difference.( Well maybe a cat too) Scott also has a full exhaust- the center silencer is still there, meaning there's three places for vapor to collect.

The usual suspects on a carb'd car for coolant leaks are the small hoses or crappy clamps.( Use the German smooth ones.) A tiny drip will cause your coolant level to go down. ( Usually to the level of where the leak is- tip) Use a white rag and slowly go over every one. Next the manifold bottom plate under the carb. same thing.( Use a mirror) There are some really nasty corrosion on the aluminum nipples, t-stat housing, etc. The choke housings too. Since the motor is canted, a small drip can stay on the block- get a flashlight and look by the starter.

You're going to loose a little coolant; on mine maybe a pint every three- four months. Evaporation, osmosis, etc. When the car heats up, the coolant expands; maybe as much as an inch in the resevoir. Don't add
until you're down past that inch cold; it just goes out the overflow.

Head job- depends on all that you do or have someone else do. Shop probably close to two grand. Here in Houston, ported, poslihed, shrick, etc. sitting on your bench- $900. A standard head job, no cam- $300 from the machinist.( I do my own checking and assembly) Figure at least 6-8 hours labor at your favorite shop's rate or double your own time. Start adding in new water pump, t-stat, etc. and well.... the slippery slope gets icey.

Oil past the valves on a BMW M30 will most likely be hardened seals. Go check how much clearance BMW says in the specs you can have... a bunch. Way more than I'm comfortable with; but you can't argue.. they seem to run forever; never heard of a stuck valve.

I say run it. :-D

 

[Tierfreund]

As much as I respect Mr. 61porsche and while I agree with his recommendation of "run it", my hunch is:
"light crack in the head or head gasket. Seals when warm."

Yes, all the other explanations are valid, and yes, it may leak slightly somewhere and all that, but I do remember the video and that is simply too much white smoke for me to think anything other than "burning coolant"

Me, I´d pull the head and maybe do/commission a full rebuild under the circumstances, but for anyone not as a--l as me; I´d recommend: just run it till it get´s worse.

 

[deQuincey]

As much as I respect Mr. 61porsche and while I agree with his recommendation of "run it", my hunch is:
"light crack in the head or head gasket. Seals when warm."

Yes, all the other explanations are valid, and yes, it may leak slightly somewhere and all that, but I do remember the video and that is simply too much white smoke for me to think anything other than "burning coolant"

Me, I´d pull the head and maybe do/commission a full rebuild under the circumstances, but for anyone not as a--l as me; I´d recommend: just run it till it get´s worse.

+1, i am closer to your comments.

(anyway mr.61porsche´s advise is also sensible, and probably can be the right thing to do, by the way, you must have all the coolant routes checked, he is right about aluminium corrosion damages !)

aluminium corrosion loving pic:

i would check the money you will need in the worst case, and then put in a balance the pros and cons

i do not know if this will suit you, but roughly speaking:

enigne off and back to the car: 1200 eur
engine rebuild complete, include machining cyls, head, new guides, valves, pistons,....: 5000 eur (including spares)
new head (in the case that you need it. i had a quotation from bmw from 2 years ago): 1400 eur
oil and coolant: 100 eur
so the worst case that would mean: 7.700 eur
and a possible case would be: 6.300 eur

you have paid a mechanic 5$ for preliminar checks, ...so: just do it !

you will know exactly what you have under the hood, and you will trust on your car

if you don´t believe me,...no kidding, this is exactly my case, i am burning oil (a pretty ammount of it), no problem with coolant, but i have a tickling noise from one of my pistons, probably piston rings, ...so is time to open the engine !

i will take the engine off and back in, by myself, my head has been recently done (i did expect the problem to be from there and i failed), so i am considering a maximum bill of 3.700 eur, and a probable bill of 2.800 eur (if i do not need cyl machining+new pistons)

i will be one month out of the road :cry:, but after that i will sleep better :-D

 

[scottevest]

Here's a more detailed video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlogc8Ju5l0

 

[scottevest]

A drive

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2fgeFIz3tc

 

[MMercury]

At first blush, the exhaust exhibited in your first video seemed a tad excessive. But as explained, it could have been from a cold humid climate. Your next two videos suggest something is abnormal and will require attention.

Even without the tell-tale plumes, the loss of coolant you describe is cause for concern. I would want to definitively locate the source of your coolant loss. Radiator, radiator cap, plastic expansion tank, hoses, pin hole leak in the heater, bad thermostat, or even a weeping water pump, could all explain the loss of coolant. As you know, the most obvious thing to look for is any puddle or trace of puddle. If possible, most radiator shops would be able to pressurize your cooling system (done via the cap) to see if there are any external leaks.

Unfortunately, it is not possible to ignore the exhaust situation, unless you are fording streams or parking in a flash flood zone. Have you run the engine without the cap on and noticed any bubbles? In other words, as things heat up /expand some combustion gases could be forcing their way into the cooling system and causing a slight overflow condition. As part of the search for the lost coolant, I would immediately remove and examine the spark plugs to determine which cylinder or cylinders, if any, is/are directly affected. In fact, given your comment that you have not seen any leaks, this might be the first thing I would do. If one or two of the cylinders is affected, it should be fairly obvious by looking at the plugs. Plugs exposed to "extra" moisture should be much cleaner than the other plugs, whereas they would be steam cleaned. If you have difficulty reading the plugs, you could notate which cylinder from which each was removed and post a picture or two of them.

The gentlemen on this board seem eager for another challenge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfDBH4X7RZ0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cp4gvyc8ZSg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6yLsx2nb24&feature=related

 

[scottevest]

my responses within your text below ALL CAPS

See my responses below in all caps

at first blush, the exhaust exhibited in your first video seemed a tad excessive. But as explained, it could have been from a cold humid climate.
We are in a very dry climate, not humid, but cold at night, about 37 degrees or so is typical during summer
your next two videos suggest something is abnormal and will require attention.

Even without the tell-tale plumes, the loss of coolant you describe is cause for concern. I would want to definitively locate the source of your coolant loss.

I noticed that i am missing a valve clamp thingy on one of the hoses leading to the coolant

radiator, radiator cap, plastic expansion tank, hoses, pin hole leak in the heater, bad thermostat, or even a weeping water pump, could all explain the loss of coolant. As you know, the most obvious thing to look for is any puddle or trace of puddle.

I haven't noticed any.

If possible, most radiator shops would be able to pressurize your cooling system (done via the cap) to see if there are any external leaks.

Unfortunately, it is not possible to ignore the exhaust situation, unless you are fording streams or parking in a flash flood zone.

Nope
have you run the engine without the cap on and noticed any bubbles?

I have not, should i?

In other words, as things heat up /expand some combustion gases could be forcing their way into the cooling system and causing a slight overflow condition. As part of the search for the lost coolant, i would immediately remove and examine the spark plugs to determine which cylinder or cylinders, if any, is/are directly affected.

How immediate? Is this something i can do? I am not technically inclined.

In fact, given your comment that you have not seen any leaks, this might be the first thing i would do. If one or two of the cylinders is affected, it should be fairly obvious by looking at the plugs. Plugs exposed to "extra" moisture should be much cleaner than the other plugs, whereas they would be steam cleaned. If you have difficulty reading the plugs, you could notate which cylinder from which each was removed and post a picture or two of them.

Ok. I can take pictures. To come


the gentlemen on this board seem eager for another challenge.

I really appreciate your help in solving this puzzle

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfdbh4x7rz0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cp4gvyc8zsg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6ylsx2nb24&feature=related

 

[Arde]

The swing by the Bay Area is starting to look so right.
I called Motel 6 and they will leave the lights on for you...

 

[MMercury]

The video links in the prior post might offer you more insight into your possible problem. I think it fair to say that long distance advice can be unintentionally misleading and is rarely "foolproof." And even the best scientists and mechanics can disagree over the simplest of things. It's what keeps racing interesting and service bays full.

"Bubbling" is merely one of many tell-tale signs of a compromised head gasket. Since it requires no special tools, that's why it came to mind. It might explain coolant loss, if you noticed coolant escaping from your overflow tube. Since you didn't mention overflow issues OR overheating, it is probably not worth spending much time on.

Looking at your spark plugs, is probably far more helpful. This is usually a good idea as spark plugs can be a fairly good barometer for engine health. You are looking for one or two plugs that are extremely clean. (See below) Spark plug comparison charts offer guidance, but are not always definitive. Notice, for example the second link below which is a page of spark plug pictures where there are several "bests." (How many "bests" can there be?)

At the risk of making things more complicated and "preachy," if you are personally undertaking this procedure, consider pulling and reinstalling your plugs when your engine is cool. The spark plug wrench in the toolkit will work, but consider getting and using a torque wrench and using a dab of anti-seize on the plug threads. None of this is essential, but you are dealing with an older aluminum cylinder head of unknown history and a stripped thread can ruin an otherwise perfectly good day.

http://www.4secondsflat.com/Spark_plug_reading.html

http://www.4secondsflat.com/plug_chart.html (several bests)


PS:If you are adventurous and/or courageous, you could try one of the many products advertised as "head gasket-in-a-can." http://www.steelseal.net/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCrUb8AXLvY I am neither adventurous nor courageous enough to have tried one of these Hail Mary products, so this is not an endorsement.

 

[61porsche]

Ok, I'll play.

My best Jeff Foxworthy impression- If your car emitted vast amounts of white smoke all the time; it might just need a head gasket.

If you think your car might have a head gasket or combustion getting into the cooling fluid, it might need to be checked with something like this:http://www.amazon.com/Lisle-Combustion-Leak-Detector/dp/B0007ZDRUI Before you spend a lot of money. A good shop should be able to do this.

leaks; can be checked by pressurizing the system. Looks like a bicycle pump with a cap for your overflow tank.

A tiny leak will not show up on the garage floor. It will follow that hose and onto the block. You don't need a clamp on the hose that is the overflow off/ below the cap nearest the firewall. ( A good idea , but not necessary.)

I mentioned corrosion- you will never get a hose to seal on a nipple with corrosion on it. It has to be cleaned or replaced if really really bad. Believe it or not there are water passages through a carbed manifold; it's the return back to the pump. Visuals won't help you. Use a paper towel or white rag. Starting at the rear of the block and going forward, there are at least nine places to look for a drip. Don't forget the heater hoses either with that funky sponge on it. ( We won't talk about the 40 year old core yet.)

Oil is another issue. One thing at a time. Fix leaks or know you don't have one.

Willing to help anytime.

 

[deQuincey]

Ok, I'll play.

My best Jeff Foxworthy impression- If your car emitted vast amounts of white smoke all the time; it might just need a head gasket.

If you think your car might have a head gasket or combustion getting into the cooling fluid, it might need to be checked with something like this:http://www.amazon.com/Lisle-Combustion-Leak-Detector/dp/B0007ZDRUI Before you spend a lot of money. A good shop should be able to do this.

leaks; can be checked by pressurizing the system. Looks like a bicycle pump with a cap for your overflow tank.

A tiny leak will not show up on the garage floor. It will follow that hose and onto the block. You don't need a clamp on the hose that is the overflow off/ below the cap nearest the firewall. ( A good idea , but not necessary.)

I mentioned corrosion- you will never get a hose to seal on a nipple with corrosion on it. It has to be cleaned or replaced if really really bad. Believe it or not there are water passages through a carbed manifold; it's the return back to the pump. Visuals won't help you. Use a paper towel or white rag. Starting at the rear of the block and going forward, there are at least nine places to look for a drip. Don't forget the heater hoses either with that funky sponge on it. ( We won't talk about the 40 year old core yet.)

Oil is another issue. One thing at a time. Fix leaks or know you don't have one.

Willing to help anytime.

+1

this is good ! what a vast range of interesting devices are out there !
very good advise !
thanks

 

[HB Chris]

I have not added any coolant in 18 months and I have driven at least 7K miles. That is a lot of coolant to lose and a lot of smoke, it seems to be a head gasket at least, a crack in the head if worse. When my coupe is cold I get the black soot/gas spitting out the tailpipe but only a very little bit.

 

[scottevest]

More data

Only smokes when chokes engaged
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QV_kJ_UROZk

ok. this is getting crazy. it is simply not consistant. other than not engaging the choke intentionally, i did everything the same today as yesterday, and NO SMOKE at all, even when accelerating from first gear, when I usually see smoke. I only drive about 1.5 miles to work, so the car is not even warmed up. The car runs great. I have no long trips planned. I am going to print out all these posts and give to a mechanic i trust in the fall and ask him to figure it out. I really appreciate all the efforts. I will report back for sure, and monitor fluids, etc.

Thanks so very much!

Scott

 

[rsporsche]

hmmm .... white smoke (possible lean condition), water chokes - no smoke when disengaged. can the coolant that is leaking be leaking from the chokes into the carb ... and therefore into the combustion chamber creating a lean condition ... or just burning the coolant? haven't had a car with water chokes in a long time (since my 2nd 2002 in 1980) - the bavaria had webers w/o water chokes ... and the last 2002 had 45 dcoes.

 

[61porsche]

Take the air cleaners off and post a picture of each carb. In particular the choke side; closest to the firewall. On the choke are casting marks that should align.

There are two choke settings depending upon which version carbs you have; US and everybody else.

Depending on version and in particular the thermo valve, there is additional enrichment from/ through the secondaries from the electric heat valve. It lets air go by and therefore draws fuel just like the idle circuit. Sometimes, with backfires, there's a small valve on the end of the heating element or bimetallic strip which can get displaced or askew. This valve is only supposed to come on at something like 45 degrees. it's behind the aluminum cover for those that have them.

It may be cold enough where Scott is that this is a factor and never a problem in the South. Sure did start easy for no choke engagement.

I still suggest a coolant pressure test for your peice of mind and to determine where you're loosing coolant. For grins and not much money go buy a new cap or turn yours 180 degrees to see if the tank neck is a little off.

 

[61porsche]

RS,

Yes, they can. There are two screws and gaskets that hold the choke housing to the carb body. One is a vacumn source for the choke diaphram.

When chasing vacuum leaks, it's the beveled screw inside the choke housing and one of the bolts on the triangulated housing- bottom one. The two really small gaskets for those with a parts diagram.

Sometimes it's just a seep rather than a drip on the coolant.

Carb'd car just run a little rough for the first 15 to 30 seconds untill they clear out the base of the manifold, heat up a bit, and get some velocity going for best atomization/ burn. It's a long track vs say a triple weber straight shot.

 

[61porsche]

Arrr.. those be webers with water chokes.... not Zeniths.

 

[61porsche]

Try to determine what fuel pump you have- electric or mechanical. Webers like Zeniths are fuel level and pressure sensitive. What this means is that your car is starting easily indicating an over rich or over choke. IF your mechanic who balanced the carbs got the level right, then that may have helped the smoking. Your comment- it runs great now could mean he leaned up the carbs.( less fuel)

Your looking for 2,1/2 to no more than 4 psi on the pump pressure.

Webers have been known to do this ( smoking from overfuel until it burns off; add a little oil and you've got the classic symtom) . It's even in their troubleshooting manual.

I still say to look over all the hoses for leaks. You have the plastic overflow which sometimes slightly deforms on the seal/ neck; try reclocking the cap 180 degrees.