selling my 73' CSL

Arde said:
Sorry doesn't cut it. Try google translate at:
http://translate.google.com/translate_t?sl=de&tl=en

type "leichtbau karosserie mit dach" and see the result as:
"with lightweight roof"

Most chess players gracefully end a game before check mate,
others insist in going through the motions. Oh, well.
Click to expand...

Honestly I would like a translatiion of both letter so i can see what they are referring to production vs. race vehicles for instance. And no I am not going to type in the entire letter....SORRY!

1. What about the lightweight body shell?
2. What about the lightweight fenders?

I applaud the guys who are at least willing to provide some information, but to simply say they are lightweight 'because i said so"...sorry, but it doesn't cut it.

I have to tell you the depth and breadth of E9 knowledge is staggering...ly low. With the exception of a handful of guys across the pond who really know their stuff the others concentrate on three main issues:

1. Telling other guys that their coupe is too rusty and how they need to part it out/sell it and get a new one.
2. Telling others they need to drop a 3.5 in their coupe
3. How much is my coupe worth? ( because i want to sell it and retire...apparently)

Sorry, but i have to tell you....i'm not impressed. And no I don't take everything people say here at face value for good reason.
 
chicane said:
I have to tell you the depth and breadth of E9 knowledge is staggering...ly low.
Click to expand...

Well, chicane, what sort of depth of information do you want? Are you trying to find the thread count of the fabric used on the seats? The grain density of the steel used in the fenders? The exact bend radii used in the wood console side panels?

While it is true that many members don't do their own wrenching, I certainly wouldn't hold that against them. Not everybody thinks a weekend under the car was well spent. (personally, that sounds good to me, but hey)

Most of the questions on the board pertain to those which you pointed out because that is what people want to know. Other issues, like the windows, trans seals, carb issues, interior questions, they all get answered as well. You can't blame the board for the questions presented to it, only the answers provided.

Given how hacked-up many of these cars are, especially in terms of body panels, I wouldn't be suprised in the least if many of the CSLs have had their fenders replaced at least once. At that point, what if the shop replaced the panels with the thicker, standard panels? Given the attention to detail I have seen in most body shops, I'd say this is an entirely plausible scenario.

There aren't very many original examples left to validate many original specifications, leading to lots of confustion, like in this thread. Especially when coupled with the language barrier and BMW's "interesting" record keeping.
 
Let's go back to 1971-72 and when the CSL was introduced!

In addition to the orignal CSL sales brochure dated 9/72 and the original CSL owner's manual dated 11/72, there are some interesting "inside information".

The document, posted by sign "2275xxx" was signed 12/10/1972 by Jochen Neerspasch (director of BMW Motorsport) is a semi-official doc and says it is not really aimed for the public. It lists the differences between BMW 3,0 CSL (street version) and 3,0 CS/CSi and states weight reducing as reason.

"Lightweight body with the following:

Body and equipment -

Aluminium hood, doors and trunk lid (my remark: except the cars with Bat kit - normal steel trunk lid), racing style pin release for the hood. Thinner steel in roof, wheel houses/fenders, front and rear side wings. No front bumper and rear bumper in special light material, no sound deadening material etc."

The doc continues to list the well-known differences like special laminated and lighter wind shield, no power windows, no power steering, Scheel sport seats, carpets in special light material, light-alloy steering wheel, Bilstein suspension etc".

From early 70s there is also an internal doc ("Schnell information - sales department") from BMW to all the dealers. This doc informs about the new top-of-the-line car - the 3,0 CSL. There again these above mentioned diffs are listed.

This doc is definitely an official statement from BMW as it was part of the kick-off marketing material for the CSL.

Both docs speak exclusively about the introduction of the CSL (street version) and compare it with CS and CSi. The race versions of CSL are not mentioned at all.

Cheers
 
No offense to anyone, but a very smart man once stated "I know enough to know that I do not know everything".[/quote]

..Or How about.....I don't even know enough to know that I "don't know" :oops:
 
x_atlas0 said:
chicane said:
I have to tell you the depth and breadth of E9 knowledge is staggering...ly low.
Click to expand...

Well, chicane, what sort of depth of information do you want? Are you trying to find the thread count of the fabric used on the seats? The grain density of the steel used in the fenders? The exact bend radii used in the wood console side panels?

While it is true that many members don't do their own wrenching, I certainly wouldn't hold that against them. Not everybody thinks a weekend under the car was well spent. (personally, that sounds good to me, but hey)

Most of the questions on the board pertain to those which you pointed out because that is what people want to know. Other issues, like the windows, trans seals, carb issues, interior questions, they all get answered as well. You can't blame the board for the questions presented to it, only the answers provided.

Given how hacked-up many of these cars are, especially in terms of body panels, I wouldn't be suprised in the least if many of the CSLs have had their fenders replaced at least once. At that point, what if the shop replaced the panels with the thicker, standard panels? Given the attention to detail I have seen in most body shops, I'd say this is an entirely plausible scenario.

There aren't very many original examples left to validate many original specifications, leading to lots of confustion, like in this thread. Especially when coupled with the language barrier and BMW's "interesting" record keeping.
Click to expand...


Excellent post (except for the first paragraph where I think you were being a smarty :) ).

The point is I would like to see more FACTS and less CONJECTURE on posts such as this. Post some scans, brochures, BMW docs, et al. But not "Well everyone know this is true". Very high-schoolish.

The truth is a lot of rumor gets passed around here like fact and others pick it up and make it so. Body shell made out of thinner gauge steel, fenders to?? Pretend I'm from Missouri and show me.

You are correct in that there have been so many rust and damage repairs, so many engine swaps who knows what is real/fake, OEM or not.

But I have to say those who say they can push up on the roof panels and tell they are thinner (we are talking about less than 2 tenths of a MM here ...supposedly), Or the guy who said he could LOOK at a Standard CS and a CSL side by side and tell that the CSL was made out of thinner gauge steel...puh...leeze.
 
chicane said:
Arde said:
Sorry doesn't cut it. Try google translate at:
http://translate.google.com/translate_t?sl=de&tl=en

type "leichtbau karosserie mit dach" and see the result as:
"with lightweight roof"

Most chess players gracefully end a game before check mate,
others insist in going through the motions. Oh, well.
Click to expand...

Honestly I would like a translatiion of both letter so i can see what they are referring to production vs. race vehicles for instance. And no I am not going to type in the entire letter....SORRY!

1. What about the lightweight body shell?
2. What about the lightweight fenders?

I applaud the guys who are at least willing to provide some information, but to simply say they are lightweight 'because i said so"...sorry, but it doesn't cut it.

I have to tell you the depth and breadth of E9 knowledge is staggering...ly low. With the exception of a handful of guys across the pond who really know their stuff the others concentrate on three main issues:

1. Telling other guys that their coupe is too rusty and how they need to part it out/sell it and get a new one.
2. Telling others they need to drop a 3.5 in their coupe
3. How much is my coupe worth? ( because i want to sell it and retire...apparently)

Sorry, but i have to tell you....i'm not impressed. And no I don't take everything people say here at face value for good reason.
Click to expand...

You are missing one item:
4. Reminding us of the low value of the Dollar against the Euro.

Without a currency expert on the board I may have missed such subtleties.
 
Arde said:
chicane said:
Arde said:
Sorry doesn't cut it. Try google translate at:
http://translate.google.com/translate_t?sl=de&tl=en

type "leichtbau karosserie mit dach" and see the result as:
"with lightweight roof"

Most chess players gracefully end a game before check mate,
others insist in going through the motions. Oh, well.
Click to expand...

Honestly I would like a translatiion of both letter so i can see what they are referring to production vs. race vehicles for instance. And no I am not going to type in the entire letter....SORRY!

1. What about the lightweight body shell?
2. What about the lightweight fenders?

I applaud the guys who are at least willing to provide some information, but to simply say they are lightweight 'because i said so"...sorry, but it doesn't cut it.

I have to tell you the depth and breadth of E9 knowledge is staggering...ly low. With the exception of a handful of guys across the pond who really know their stuff the others concentrate on three main issues:

1. Telling other guys that their coupe is too rusty and how they need to part it out/sell it and get a new one.
2. Telling others they need to drop a 3.5 in their coupe
3. How much is my coupe worth? ( because i want to sell it and retire...apparently)

Sorry, but i have to tell you....i'm not impressed. And no I don't take everything people say here at face value for good reason.
Click to expand...

You are missing one item:
4. Reminding us of the low value of the Dollar against the Euro.

Without a currency expert on the board I may have missed such subtleties.
Click to expand...

Oh and one more:
5. An excessive number of jokers, flakers, fakers, and otherwise useless characters
 
chicane said:
And no I am not going to type in the entire letter....SORRY!
Click to expand...

No problem, I have it done. Just copy-paste :)

note: i used http://dictionary.reference.com/translate/index.html

Here it is

Liste der Änderungen des bmw 3.0 csl gegenüber BMW 3.0 CS (bzw. CSI) betreffend Gewichtsreduzierung.

Karosserie und Ausstattung.

Leichtbaukarosserie mit:

Alu-Motorhaube, Alu-Türen, Alu-Kofferdeckel, vereinfachte Haubenaufhaltungen und verschlüsse, Dünnblech-Teile wis Vorderwand,
Trennwand-Geptickraum, Dach, Radhaus, Seitenwand vorn, Seitenwand
hinten, Kar.-Abschlußblech, usw. Stoßstange vorn entfällt, Stoßstange hinten Kunststoff, kein Antidröhnmaterial.

Windschutzscheibe Glaverbel VHR-Glas,
Seitenscheiben und Heckscheibe Plexiglas,
Türscheiben mit Kurbelapparat anstatt elektr. fensterheber,
Seitenscheiben feststehend anstatt elektr. fensterheber.

Schalensitze vorn.
Bodenteppiche in erleichterter ausführung.
Leichtmetall-Lederlenkrad.

Fahrwerk.

Bilstein-Federbeine und Stoßdämpfer, progressive Federn,
kein Stabilisatoren.

Lenkung.

ZF-Gemmer-Lenkung ohne Lenkhilfe.

Elektr. Ausstattung.

Kleine Batterie (36 Ah).
Vereinfachter kabelstrang.

Kupplung.
Erleichterte Kupplungsdruckplatte.
 
sunroof csl

I have to comment on the CSL and sunroof. Could it be that these "known" CSL with sunroof have got their chassinumber transplanted from a genuine CSL WITHOUT sunroof to a fresh CS/CSI WITH sunroof? Many, and I must stress MANY CSL:s have got their chassis replaced by ordinary CS/CSI already in the late 70-ties. It is well known that an ordinary CS/CSI corrode very quickly, then you do not need to be Einstein to figure out that CSL:s disappeared even quicker...I would say that many CSL which are running today have had their thinner body replaced with an ordinary CS/CSI chassi.

Best regrads,

/Johan
 
Johan:

I'm not so sure that many CSL chassis have been entirely replaced by a CS or CSi chassi. This is pretty easy to check. If a CSL has matching numbers (VIN + engine number), no power steering, black inner roof, special laminated wind shield, no accu hand lamp, no visible/strange weldings, simplified electrical wiring etc it's most likely a genuine CSL.

Of course it is possible to replace everything partly or entirely, but to change chassi to a CS/CSi, remove and install the engine, remove the power steering, change inner roof, remove all sound deadening materials etc sounds not really realistic. If this was done in the 70-80s, I'm afraid the labour costs was too high compared to the value of the car at that time.

No, I think it is more likely that the CSLs with BMW sunroof have been roof converted by BMW/dealer (upon request by the client) or on the after-market. Most of the CSLs with sunroof belong to the 2285 series and are equipped with full city pack and some of these cars have also normal CS seats.

As regards the different special versions of delivered CSLs, unfortunately there are no detailed documentation left by MT. But it is clear that there were many variations among these CSLs. For instance there were city pack CSLs with no steel bumpers or without power steering, city pack CSLs without power windows and non city pack CSLs with power windows etc.

Reading the BMW press release and internal marketing letters dated 14/8/72 and 6/10/72 they say that due to a high demand from Italy and UK, with more than 100 CSLs pre-ordered, the delivery of a higher number of CSLs can start as from October 1972. It also says that variations in relation to destination country can appear (due to different national regulations in force).

The CSLs aimed for the Italian market had for instance two colored (half was orange and half was white) front flasher lenses and the seat belt solutions vary a lot etc. In fact I think we have to accept that almost everything was possible during the early 70s when the CSLs were produced.

In the original E9 sales brochure, it says that it is fully possible to "personalize your CSL" and in the special equipment brochure for E9 dated 26/8/1974 a lot of "normal" options are listed also for CSL:

power windows (547 DM)
AC (2 727 DM)
power mirrors (110 DM)
velour carpeting (105 DM)
lockable petrol filler cup (17 DM)
tool kit in trunk lid (133 DM)
automatic seat belts rear (131 DM)
standard feather hood locks (59 DM)
lights cleaning system (397 DM)
etc

Dated 26/8/1974 the price tags for new E9s were the following:

3.0 CSL - 38 860 DM
3.0 CSi - 34 980 DM
3.0 CS - 32 980 (3.0 CSA 34 560 DM)
2.5 CS - 28 550 (2.5 CSA 30 130 DM)

Cheers
 
sunroof csl

My personal opinion is that sunroof on a CSL should be questioned as long as BMW cannot provide 100% reliable info that they really could provide a genuine CSL with sunroof. You compare the option sunroof with the city pack, I do not think that is an appropriate comparison since the city pack is well known options, the sun roof is not. In the list of customized items for your CSL that you are referring to the sunroof is missing...

And yes, I have talked to persons in Germany who sold crashed cars in the late 70-ties early 80-ties, they just bought the number and papers. Some time later those chassinumber showed up as genuine CSL, just think how genuine those CSL:s are. To change all parts you are mentioning is not that difficult and can be done without much effort compared to a normal restoration, especially if you have most of the unique details from the corroded or crashed car.

So, I am still is of the opinon that CSL with sunroof is most likely a fake until BMW can provide reliable info about any production of a CSL with sunroof.

Best regards,

/Johan
 
If someone search for 100% sureness in relation to delived CSLs, I'm afraid it is like a mission impossible. The fact is that BMW threw away a lot of detailed documentation in relation to the CSL delivery sheets so it is very difficult for BMW to confirm all CSL details.

For sure, sunroof was (for natural reasons) not an official option for CSL but my point is; if a customer insisted to have a sunroof installed it can not be excluded (confirmed by Mobile Tradition) that a sunroof istallation was done in the early 70s or as an after market operation on a genuine CSL.

I think also one should be careful talking about fake CSLs without 100% sureness of fake. If a city pack CSL owner removes the bumpers is this then a fake CSL? Or if wings/fenders are replaced by normal steel ones during a renovation of a genuine CSL is this then a fake CSL?

In my humble opinion a fake CSL is when the VIN is touched in a manipulated way and not when someone changes some parts etc on a genuine CSL. It is still a CSL but maybe not in strict original condition.

I still dont see why many CSLs should have changed their chassis for CS/CSi ones. During the 70-80s, the CSL was not really a sought after car. The price of a second hand CSL was less compared to a used CSi. So why bother to do all this work some 25 years ago in order to have a car worth less.

Of course some few CSL cars may have changed VINs but I dont think it is so many cars. As said before it is pretty easy to check if a CSL is genuine or not. As far as I know most CSLs today have some personalized options but they are still genuine CSLs.


Cheers
 
Interesting thread .. at least some of it :roll:

I think we have now finally ascertained that the CSL did indeed have lighter gauge steel in the roof and other places

MichaelP said:
The rest of the shell, or frame, as it were, is off-the-rack from Osnabruck.
Click to expand...

I don't think so. If you look in the official BMW E9 repair manual you'll see that the CS/CSi body has the following dimensions:

Length: 4660mm
Width: 1670mm

whereas the CSL body has these dimensions:

Length: 4630mm
Width: 1730mm

In order to satisfy those who don't believe these numbers, perhaps we can ask someone who is the lucky owner of both a CS/CSi and a CSL to verify :?
 
Hi DJ,

those differences are down to the lack of front bumper and the wheelarch trims.

Regards,

Rohan
 
We can discuss whether there are many or few chassitransplantation forever. What I mean by a chassi transplantation is taking the part of the CSL bearing the chassinumber, can be as small as fitting in your hand, but more likely the whole part of the car dividing the engine compartment from where the heating fan is located is removed. If you do that correctly it is more or less impossible to see if the chassi number has been changed...the only way to know is the history of the car and by careful inspection.

There are numerous chassinumbers for sale nowadays, a have personally been offered a handful chassinumbers for very different amount of money, but never taken the opportunity for obvious reasons.

Regarding the chassi dimensions of CSL, remember that CSL had wheel arc's in stainless steel, that may be the reason for a wider dimension compared to an ordinary E9. The lenght, given that the CSL is provided with plastic rear bumber will be shorter, that is the explanation of the other differencies...

/Johan
 
I fully agree Johan. Just a remark; if one check both VIN and the engine number and they match, then at least both the original CSL engine and the CSL VIN have been moved to the new chassi. Easy to check.

As for the dimensions and if I remember correctly, all european E9 coupes have the same dimensions except the non city pack CSL (because of the lack of bumpers, additional wheel arches etc). I will check this more in detail consulting documentation/registration papers I have to my E9 cars.

Cheers
 
csl roofs

Here's my take on the roof situation:

We're digging into the meat and potatoes of a csl restoration here and I can tell you, the roof is thinner by anecdotal evidence. It is really flimsy vis a vis other sunroofless coupes we've restored or had in the shop for service.

Also, I haven't had time to read all posts in the thread, and I dont know if this has been brought up, but the guy who started this appears to be Kevin Jeanette. He's pretty respected in the Porsche world (www.gunnarracing.com) as one of the best shops to have factory Porsche race cars restored, so he is bringing an extremely broad professional perspective on the car market at large to bear here. Not saying that it makes anyone an expert outside their usual market or makes asking prices worth it, but its not like he is a neophyte ignorant of broad market forces either.

Either way, we'll try to keep this board updated on the progress of the csl restoration as it progresses, its a nut and bolt type restoration of a decent fairly rust free (as much as any of these are) car. I hope to show and educate on various aspects of metal repair, body fettling, etc.

I know a bunch of guys here from the 02 world, so hello to all and hi to anyone we saw at Vintage at the Vineyards.
 
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