the tesla dumb

[coupedegrace]

after some days. is funny how this diverted to a complete different bunch of ideas, good,...

I think two things happened: 1) not everybody understood your original post because they didn't know the full story (at least I didn't), and 2) people here made it about the cars and their merits.

I think there's actually a lot of discussion about Elon Musk and whether he enhances the Tesla brand or not mixed in, but it's balanced with a discussion of the merits of Teslas as cars in general.

Responding to "and now go buy one of his cars": ¡No, no voy a hacerlo!

His tweet was an unbelievably stupid and childish response to frustrated customers. I think none of the people who posted on this thread were surprised by that though. It's kind of what he does.

I also like how this thread changed, and I thank you for starting it!

 

[coupedegrace]

The individual tyre pressure display is cool though.

Interesting, my parents' 2015 535i also showed individual pressures, but it was for the tires. I guess it took seven years for them to work through the alphabet and get to the letter "y."

 

[Gazz]

Interesting, my parents' 2015 535i also showed individual pressures, but it was for the tires. I guess it took seven years for them to work through the alphabet and get to the letter "y."

Condescension is tiring.

 

[deQuincey]

I think two things happened: 1) not everybody understood your original post because they didn't know the full story (at least I didn't), and 2) people here made it about the cars and their merits.

I think there's actually a lot of discussion about Elon Musk and whether he enhances the Tesla brand or not mixed in, but it's balanced with a discussion of the merits of Teslas as cars in general.

Responding to "and now go buy one of his cars": ¡No, no voy a hacerlo!

His tweet was an unbelievably stupid and childish response to frustrated customers. I think none of the people who posted on this thread were surprised by that though. It's kind of what he does.

I also like how this thread changed, and I thank you for starting it!

i am happy for the evolution of the thread, too,..

regards

 

[CSteve]

Yes, this thread is an education/tutorial on everything SD. Thank you for initiating it.

 

[Ohmess]

Two comments:

1) One of the things that bothers me about self-driving cars is the fact that they are being tested on the roads, while we are also using the roads. I understand the need to develop and test the technology in a real world environment, otherwise the technology will never be practical. But the other side of this is that we are part of the experiment, without our knowledge or consent. And this, in turn, means that there must have been deals cut with lawyers and insurance companies and politicians to enable live testing of these unproven technologies, otherwise manufacturers would not take the risk to conduct secret tests.

Google was testing automonous cars more than ten years ago in Washington, DC. I learned this not from any news source, but from researching the function of the conical devices resting atop several Priuses (Prii?) in the parking garage of the office building I worked in and connecting that information with an article about Google's push into self driving vehicles (which contained a picture of these very same devices on a test track in California) along with the fact that Google was subletting space in the building.

I don't claim to know how good these systems really are, or what the risks may really be. And in DC traffic, these systems may well be better than your average driver.

Nevertheless, the lack of transparency about these tests probably explains at least some of the hostility to the implementation of these systems.

2) Wobdog also raised another issue about self-driving cars that is important to car enthusiasts with his comment about all the Teslas he sees going the speed limit. The programming in self-driving cars is going to have a huge effect on traffic flows in major metropolitan areas. My best guess is that once DC hits about 15% saturation, self-driving cars will control all the traffic flow in the entire metropolitan area, at least during rush hour. Everyone else will be in conga lines behind self-driving vehicles.

 

[coupedegrace]

Condescension is tiring.

I actually enjoy the differences between American spellings and the rest of the world that uses the king's english. Or is it queen's? Anyway, are there many spelling differences between Australia and the UK that you know of?

I saw a British commercial for a Mercedes about 5 years ago. It was flashing descriptions of features of the car on the screen, and one of them was "automatic breaking." I thought for a moment whether that was another spelling difference, and then realized they just really needed a better ad agency.

 

[Arde]

...

Self driving will come because AI will improve exponentially. Every driving environment error is added to the AI knowledge growth with the likelihood, far more so than with humans, that it won't be repeated ( in the same way ) again. I've said it before - AI one day will be the greatest challenge to humans in terms of questioning our identity. Eg. SD forces us to question our identity as drivers.
AI is using us humans right now to Beta test its own evolution. The real Westworld is the entire planet.

Totally agree. There is no doubt that computers will be eventually better than the average driver, just like they became better at chess and go.

Also agree with the beta testing point. My youngest son worked for Waymo analyzing algorithm exceptions where the driver had to intervene, and it is fascinating.

If my identity is no longer the driver what do I show the officer when he asks for license and registration? I need a good comeback line I can give the officer.

 

[coupedegrace]

In our area it seems that some transportation planners/engineers are starting to use the promise of smart, connected vehicles, whether they be autonomous or self-driving, as a means to not actually do any planning.

Q: But what are you doing about the horrible gridlock on I-84?

A: Smart cars.

Q: But what about the horrible gridlock on I-5? How will a new bridge alleviate that if it still has so few lanes?

A: Smart cars.

Q: Surface streets are just getting more crowded, yet you keep eliminating lanes on major roads. How is that supposed to work?

A: Shared smart cars.

This is obviously an exaggeration and an over-simplification, but it's definitely a trend I'm seeing. Also the questions don't necessarily reflect my opinions about road designs/improvements. They're just examples of the types of situations where "smart vehicles" seems to be an increasingly large part of the solution.

 

[Gazz]

I actually enjoy the differences between American spellings and the rest of the world that uses the king's english. Or is it queen's? Anyway, are there many spelling differences between Australia and the UK that you know of?

I saw a British commercial for a Mercedes about 5 years ago. It was flashing descriptions of features of the car on the screen, and one of them was "automatic breaking." I thought for a moment whether that was another spelling difference, and then realized they just really needed a better ad agency.

We use the reigning Monarch's English; for the most part. There has always been a creeping acceptance of American spelling, eg. the word labour is spelt that way however the left leaning major political party here, ( your version is the Democrats ), is titled the Labor party. Curiously I read an article in which the Labor party claimed to represent labour. Go figure. Convention on the other hand is something else, eg.

• If you're following US writing conventions, use "spelled."
• If you're following UK writing conventions, you can use "spelled" or "spelt."

Arde writes - "If my identity is no longer the driver what do I show the officer when he asks for license and registration? I need a good comeback line I can give the officer." Don't forget that the law is an ongoing beta test with new precedents arising all the time. Though, good luck with "send the fine to Tesla".

 

[Gazz]

2) Wobdog also raised another issue about self-driving cars that is important to car enthusiasts with his comment about all the Teslas he sees going the speed limit. The programming in self-driving cars is going to have a huge effect on traffic flows in major metropolitan areas. My best guess is that once DC hits about 15% saturation, self-driving cars will control all the traffic flow in the entire metropolitan area, at least during rush hour. Everyone else will be in conga lines behind self-driving vehicles.

I suggest that if traffic flow algorithms are adapted to self driving via the interconnection of all vehicles we will see the end of the dreaded concertina affect. We've all had the experience of jumping on the brakes coming up to crawling traffic on the freeway simply because 5 klms ahead everyone has slowed to glance at a roadside tyre change. SD would even out the flow to avoid this ridiculous situation. Imagine the benefits in low visibility situations, no more mass collisions in dense fog.
We may be able to manually over ride automatic control though I suggest the liability ramifications would be sufficiently dissuasive to avoid doing so in all but the most extreme situations.
So how does Tesla reconcile the future of SD with ludicrous mode?

 

[CSteve]

But Gazz SD will put an end to that treasured American road custom: Rubber Necking. And for you non-yanks it is not what goes on after dark in a drive-in movie. Altough there are only a handfull left in the land of the free and the... oh, you know the rest.

But if it does what you claim it will also put an end to sitting at a standstill and moving 3 1/2 miles per hour for an hour and half only to arrive at what might have been a simple tire change to discover - nothing. The most frustrating of jams for me.

 

[Arde]

... the word labour is spelt that way however the left leaning major political party here, ( your version is the Democrats ), is titled the Labor party. Curiously I read an article in which the Labor party claimed to represent labour. Go figure. Convention on the other hand is something else, eg...

Ah, just like there is no I in team, there is no U in the labor party... Good to know.

 

[craterface]

@rsporsche, here's some real world data. My wife bought a Tesla Model S 60 in 2013. Two years ago she bought a new model Y and the S became my DD. Now we have 130,000 miles on the S and the battery finally just gave out. There has been the expected gradual decrease in range (down to 158 miles), but two weeks ago we started to get some ominous warning messages, and it would not take a full charge. We had never limited the charge to 80 percent over the years, as suggested by the factory, because the range from new was only about 200 miles, now down to 160, pre failure. The car is still very useable, but the software has now limited the range to 65 miles.

I think the car is pretty amazing to drive. Bottomless torque. Fast. Smooth. Decent steering too. It replaced by wife's 2007 X5, which had plenty of mechanical and electronic issues. The is S is better built and better looking than the Y. It doesn't drive itself, nor would I ever want that, unless I commuted daily in bumper to bumper traffic as many do.

The quote to replace the battery is $16,662, plus tax. You get a 4 year, 50k mile warranty on the new battery (but non-transferable) So I am going to keep driving the S on my commute, and see how long that lasts. One tech suggested a way to "rebalance" the battery (I won't bore you with the details) by cycling it down in a certain pattern, so I am going to give that a shot. There is no aftermarket repair option for my battery failure, which is frustrating.

I am also a big fan of the plug in hybrid. Say 40 miles of range, then switch on the gas or diesel engine. Will cover most commutes, but make long distance travel easier. And you can make 3-4x as many of them with the same amount of battery raw material.

The Ionic 5 from Hyundai is my favorite new electric--reminds me of a Lancia Delta Integrale.

 

[mulberryworks]

The quote to replace the battery is $16,662, plus tax. You get a 4 year, 50k mile warranty on the new battery (but non-transferable) So I am going to keep driving the S on my commute, and see how long that lasts. One tech suggested a way to "rebalance" the battery (I won't bore you with the details) by cycling it down in a certain pattern, so I am going to give that a shot. There is no aftermarket repair option for my battery failure, which is frustrating.

I've seen reports online of independent shops that can do some repair on EV batteries. It requires removal of the pack and testing each cell then replacing the bad ones. Not cheap, but substantially less than whole pack replacement. I don't have any names to offer you, however.

I bought my daughter a well-used Prius when she graduated from college and before it was put up for sale it had a battery pack that was short on range. The seller (in LA) found a guy that "reconditioned or recalibrated" the battery with software to get it back up to working properly. She had no issue with it for several years until she was rear-ended and the insurance company totaled it.

 

[craterface]

I've seen reports online of independent shops that can do some repair on EV batteries. It requires removal of the pack and testing each cell then replacing the bad ones. Not cheap, but substantially less than whole pack replacement. I don't have any names to offer you, however.

I bought my daughter a well-used Prius when she graduated from college and before it was put up for sale it had a battery pack that was short on range. The seller (in LA) found a guy that "reconditioned or recalibrated" the battery with software to get it back up to working properly. She had no issue with it for several years until she was rear-ended and the insurance company totaled it.

This place used to repair Tesla batteries, not so any more, because Tesla changed the software. You need software to locate the bad cell in order to replace it. The software is proprietary, and so all packs go back to the factory to be repaired. Very very annoying. We need national "right to repair" legislation to fix this. I've had a couple of modern Ferraris, and the aftermarket supplies electronic diagnostic tools, even for those cars. It's just typical of Musk.

Electric Vehicle Service

Expert third-party service for maintenance, repair, and customization, all at competitive prices.

electrifiedgarage.com

 

[Ohmess]

And while we are discussing these things, Scott has hit a point that I think needs to be made when we have these debates. By jumping straight to electric, I think we are missing a step. Hybrids are a very nice transition from where we are to all electric cars. And for many people, they may well be a better alternative.

 

[Gazz]

Genesis has a 10 year power train warranty. I specified the top power model to ensure enough power redundancy to accommodate any loss of efficiency over the time we will have the car. It has 320 kw ( approx' 425 hp ) and 600 nm torque in standard mode. So called boost mode takes it to 360 kw and 700 nm in 10 second bursts. This is more than enough power and torque, which is pretty well instantaneous btw, so that even if there is a 10% loss over time it won't be appreciably noticed. Ditto with range loss,

My take on hybrids is why bother? If you are worried about range then just get an ICE car. If you are constantly doing short trips then get an EV. If you are trying to save money using the electric mode of a hybrid then it will take you an awful long time to recoup the difference in the initial cost difference between the hybrid and the non hybrid versions of that model car, if ever. Then there's the servicing costs for two types of drive trains plus the out of warranty period doubling of potential issues. Then there's the loss of efficiency of a small battery pack reducing the already limited range. The octane level in petrol is lost over time in a tank so if you only rarely use the ICE it will be running on poor quality fuel, which creates its own issues. Retail sales of hybrids have plunged with the advent of EVs. I haven't checked it out yet, because I don't need to, but I suggest that this will have a significant effect on the resale value of a hybrid.

Just my take from when I did consider a hybrid as an option.

 

[craterface]

Genesis has a 10 year power train warranty. I specified the top power model to ensure enough power redundancy to accommodate any loss of efficiency over the time we will have the car. It has 320 kw ( approx' 425 hp ) and 600 nm torque in standard mode. So called boost mode takes it to 360 kw and 700 nm in 10 second bursts. This is more than enough power and torque, which is pretty well instantaneous btw, so that even if there is a 10% loss over time it won't be appreciably noticed. Ditto with range loss,

My take on hybrids is why bother? If you are worried about range then just get an ICE car. If you are constantly doing short trips then get an EV. If you are trying to save money using the electric mode of a hybrid then it will take you an awful long time to recoup the difference in the initial cost difference between the hybrid and the non hybrid versions of that model car, if ever. Then there's the servicing costs for two types of drive trains plus the out of warranty period doubling of potential issues. Then there's the loss of efficiency of a small battery pack reducing the already limited range. The octane level in petrol is lost over time in a tank so if you only rarely use the ICE it will be running on poor quality fuel, which creates its own issues. Retail sales of hybrids have plunged with the advent of EVs. I haven't checked it out yet, because I don't need to, but I suggest that this will have a significant effect on the resale value of a hybrid.

Just my take from when I did consider a hybrid as an option.

My Tesla battery came with an 8 year, 150k mile battery warranty, and it failed at 9 years and two months and 130k miles.

When you can only have one car, I still think plug in hybrid is a great option.

Charging when you are on a long trip is a PITA. I've done it with my wife's car. Lots of time the chargers are all full here in Florida. I am sure this happens in California too, where there are a lot of EVs, especially at holiday times. Teslas are EVERYWHERE out there.

I think you made a great choice with the Genesis.

 

[Gazz]

My Tesla battery came with an 8 year, 150k mile battery warranty, and it failed at 9 years and two months and 130k miles.

When you can only have one car, I still think plug in hybrid is a great option.

Charging when you are on a long trip is a PITA. I've done it with my wife's car. Lots of time the chargers are all full here in Florida. I am sure this happens in California too, where there are a lot of EVs, especially at holiday times. Teslas are EVERYWHERE out there.

I think you made a great choice with the Genesis.

I agree that for some it may work, I just couldn't go with it for the reasons stated. I shouldn't have been proselytizing.

Re the Genesis being a great choice - well let's see. It is an emergent brand so there is a gamble that it won't become another Nissan Infinity mess though with the backing of Hyundai that's less likely. Even though we are jumping into the EV revolution for the first time we are far from early adaptors, having considered one as far back as the first BMW i3. At this stage I think it will be a series of upgrade steps as new EV tech evolves and the charging network becomes efficient. Given the wait times for new cars my plan is to hold for 3 years but place an order on an upgrade in 2 years' time anticipating a year's wait. I have opted for a wall mount charger at home rather than the offered 5 years free charging on the network. Either option is included with the car, the buyer chooses which one they want. The GV60 is far from a sporty choice if you are a driver but that's not what it's about for us, (it's my wife's car). I recommend anyone to test drive an EV even if just for the experience as they are quite different to an ICE vehicle.