Turbo or not?

RJRuiz

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Contemplating adding a turbo to my '72 CSi- now with Korman Stage 2 3.5, Schrick 284, Stahl headers running Motronic 1.0.

I am in the process of converting to MegaSquirt with wasted spark and will either go with ITB's or turbo.

Any one running a turbo as a regular driver out there?

Ray
 

RJRuiz

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Thanks for the link-

No, I had not seen an electrically driven supercharger; neat idea.

I am looking at the TCD and Miller kits, know that there are a few e9 turbos out there, would like to know what the collective experience is.

Looking to put something together by late summer.

Ray
 

sfdon

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I would want to do home work on the 284 cam in conjunction with a turbo.
When those both come on at the same time there is going to some excitement.
 

dang

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What kind of compression are you running and what kind of hp are you planning on?
 

RJRuiz

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Running 9.5 CR; looking for 325-350 CHP, want driver adjustable boost to 400-425.

Talking to Paul Burke about his cams- will probably change the Schrick out.

Ray
 

decoupe

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Boost engine specs

So what are the ideal engine specs for those who plan togo the forced induction route? Low CR in the 8.0 to 9.0 range? Stock or mild increased cam? Over square, square or under square bore vs stroke? Air to air or water cooled intercooler? Other considerations?

If this is considered hijacking a thread my apologies to RJRuiz but hopefully it's relevant to your opening question. Plus the Rotrex is not yet available in electric drive but is in crank driven.

Doug
 

RJRuiz

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decoupe:

would like to hear everyones' take on all of the above- also want to hear re any real world experience going down this road.

I am aware of at least one monster turbo build, and there is/was a twin turbo CSL in the Southeast. Not sure if that car was not taken back to original spec.

IIRC there was also a Chamonix twin turbo in So California as well as another that was in H&B's shop somewhat recently.

I would really like to hear what living with one of these on a regular basis is like!

Ray
 
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RJRuiz

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I am re-reading the Rotrex info- that has to be one of the least informative web sites around.

Good news is that Active Autowerkes is a dealer & they are in my back yard.

Will give them a call tomorrow.
 

x_atlas0

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So what are the ideal engine specs for those who plan togo the forced induction route? Low CR in the 8.0 to 9.0 range? Stock or mild increased cam? Over square, square or under square bore vs stroke? Air to air or water cooled intercooler? Other considerations?

If this is considered hijacking a thread my apologies to RJRuiz but hopefully it's relevant to your opening question. Plus the Rotrex is not yet available in electric drive but is in crank driven.

Doug

Like many other things when it comes to complex systems, most of those factors depend on what you want.

CR, in a FI application, could be considered a limiting factor when you are designing the system. For example, if you only want low boost, you can get away with 9:1+ on a M30 on pump gas using port injection no problem, especially with an intercooler. (at or under 7-10 psi) Much above that, and you start having problems due to the M30's head design and the limits of available gasoline. What is really going on is you are trying to maintain a maximum pre-ignition temperature and pressure so you don't get detonation. The pressure is increased by the CR, the boost, and the intake temperature. That's why you see high boost builds with a low CR. Alternatively, using higher-grade gasoline raises the allowable pressure, giving you more power. This is why you see really high power builds state two power ratings: pump and 100 octane.

I have seen a few M30s pushing 500 on 20+ psi using CRs in the low-to-mid 7:1 range, running on pump gas. 300-350 is pretty mild and can run the stock CR with intercooling up to ~14 psi. TCD and Miller have done some excellent work along these lines.

Intercooling is another system with pros and cons. On the one hand, air-water intercoolers are usually smaller for a given temperature reduction, which results in less of a pressure drop. On the downside, they are much more complicated, since they require another radiator, tank, pump, and lines. Also, the coolant eventually becomes hot under extended use, resulting in heat soak and reduced effectiveness of the intercooler. Air-air coolers are usually larger for a given temperature drop than air-water coolers, but they have no secondary systems and will never have heat soak. Larger systems also reduce the transient response somewhat, since you are increasing the volume of air that must be moved when you open up the throttle.

Oversquare and undersquare function exactly the same as a NA engine, because all you are doing is increasing the air and fuel present for the combustion event. Oversquare gives you high-RPM torque and power at the expense of low-end, undersquare gives you more low-end torque at the expense of high-end. Undersquare won't really help with a turbo though, since the turbo will only be active from ~3500 RPM and up.

Cams do get a bit tricky, and I frankly haven't looked into it enough to give a decent opinion.

RJRuiz- when you say "driver-adjustable boost" are you talking about a knob in the cabin? There are good ways to do that which are a bit tricky, and there are poor ways to do it that mostly work.
 

RJRuiz

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Doug:

Good information; I am looking for an increase in usable HP that is maintainable and will not stress the drivetrain/chassis much more that what I already have.

The car drives really well now- most of the power is up high in the rev range, but I am also running a very short (high numerically) rear end, giving good acceleration.

1st is quite short, and I can start from a dead stop in 2nd with some slight easing of the clutch. As part of this process I will also be changing out my LSD to a 3.45 or 3.25.

I like the idea of the S/C, would be able to just stomp it in any gear and get immediate response.

By "driver adjustable" I mean a system that works on the fly- either a knob or easily adjustable electronic type of control.

Ray
 

decoupe

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I contacted Active Autowerkes a couple of months ago to ask about buying the components and they said they were happy to do that but as far as sizing and sorting it out, we'd be on our own which, given my location could be problematic. If they are close to you then maybe they will be more helpful. Any feedback you can share would be appreciated.

There are several Honda's running Rotrex around here but no older cars. Programable engine management probably a must so Megasquirt or others would be a good match.

Doug
 

x_atlas0

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Doug:

Good information; I am looking for an increase in usable HP that is maintainable and will not stress the drivetrain/chassis much more that what I already have.

The car drives really well now- most of the power is up high in the rev range, but I am also running a very short (high numerically) rear end, giving good acceleration.

1st is quite short, and I can start from a dead stop in 2nd with some slight easing of the clutch. As part of this process I will also be changing out my LSD to a 3.45 or 3.25.

I like the idea of the S/C, would be able to just stomp it in any gear and get immediate response.

By "driver adjustable" I mean a system that works on the fly- either a knob or easily adjustable electronic type of control.

Ray

It sounds like you may want to overbuild the engine and do an initial medium-level setup. That way, if you want more, you can make the changes without having to open up the engine.

I would start with a TCD S2 or equivalent using MegaSquirt or a WAR chipped-Motronic. That would give you ~350 safe rwhp for a minimum of investment, both in terms of time and money. If you want to overbuild the engine, you would need to upgrade the head gasket and the head studs. Cometic and Alpina made/make stronger M30 head gaskets. ARP makes an excellent and proven fastener set for the M30. Those two items will let the M30 run reliably up to ~20 psi, depending on other factors. (gas, tune quality, thicker or standard head gasket, CR) The crank and rods are forged stock, so if you have a hankering for custom parts, I'd start with the pistons.

It should be noted that nobody makes or has made a commercial M30 supercharger kit. There have been some homebrew deals using twin-screws, centris, and roots blowers, but most seem to switch them out for a turbo. Also, with the Rotrex, since it is a kind of centri, you would only reach full boost at (or very near to) redline.

Any torque much above 300 lbs-ft, based on people like Coupeking and Paul Cain, seems to give the stock E9 chassis some trouble, due to the lack of full welds in the chassis.

Why do you want the adjustability? That makes things much more complicated. The easiest way to do it is to use a user-adjustable rising-rate fuel pressure regulator, and even that is just dumping more gas in, rather than actually making it run at proper AFRs and the rest of it. I don't know if MegaSquirt has a boost lookup function in the tune, as that is what you would need to compensate for an adjustable boost.
 

sfdon

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I have adjustable wastegates in both my m106 engines. They work fine for when you want to have fun or not. Both cars have a valve in the glove box. Most of my early installs were next to the gear shift and used a gas tank shut-off valve from a skidoo. Try to keep the hoses as short as possible to avoid the dreaded boost spikes. I ran my first 745i for years with one eye on the boost gauge and one eye on the road and no boost controller. After 5 years of up to 22 psi I finally had to toss the engine- pistons were eaten to death.

Wonder if you could go with a low boost very light weight impeller design?
If you could boost at 1800 rpm that would cover you until the 284 cam kicked in.

Keep in mind that updated turbos are a whole new world these days.
 

RJRuiz

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Wanting the adjustable boost is clearly a case of my wanting to have the cake and once in a while take a nibble!

From what I could see of the Rotrex dimensions, I think it would be a problematic fit on the front of the engine.

I had a very interesting conversation with Paul Burke today, he is waiting on my build sheet and will come back with recommendations.

The turbo world is is indeed changing rapidly.

For now, my thinking is running along the lines of a medium sized, ball bearing turbo kit, with a/a intercooler, MS wasted spark, and Accusump turbo oiler.

as far as fuel, premium gas with 10% ethanol is everywhere, E85 is rare, 100 octane Avgas is available in 2 nearby locations.

Air temperatures are a consideration in South Florida and the car must have suitable A/C. I am investigating additional cooling options and may also need an oil cooler.

My goal is a conservatively engineered setup that would be reliable and long lasting.

And trying not to scare myself too much!

Ray
 

sfdon

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Keep in mind the e30 condenser and fan are almost drop ins.

Oil coolers are not a big deal either- I have installed them in several coupes, the issue is fresh new hoses.
 

RJRuiz

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Doug:

I will speak with Active tomorrow re the Rotrex and will be visiting their shop next week re an exhaust for another car I just acquired.

Let me know by PM if there is anything specific you want me to find out for you.

Ray
 

RJRuiz

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SFDon:

What turbos are you aware of that would kick in at 1600 RPM?

Because of the differences in overlap, I will most likely be switching out the Schrick to a custom ground, turbo specific cam, but would like to follow up your lead.

Ray
 

rsporsche

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i'm not sure of specific aftermarket turbo scenarios, but vw / audi have a 2.0L turbo that comes on between 1600 + 1800 rpm ... very smooth and no lag. pretty amazing acceleration for a little 4 banger. its subtle, the first time i drove one, i didn't think the turbo was working ... based on my previous experience w/ 70's + mid 80's turbo cars - porsche 930, 944 turbo + a 2002 turbo.
 
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