What determines a matching numbers car?

Drew20

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This thread is blurring provenance and matching numbers. Matching numbers is as set out above, but I for one agree with the sentiment here that matching numbers is just one part of provenance. Different markets take matching numbers more seriously than others. I gather (from the chap off chasing classic cars) that in the US it's a bigger deal than in Europe.
When I puchased my city pack I did get stuck in there to verify the block number, tick!
When I bought my E24 (years ago) I did the same, and found a blank surface. Sure enough, the seller then confirmed that the car had had a replacement short block quite early early in its life. This made no difference to what I was prepared to pay however. If anything it improved things as it proved that a previous owner had lavished a lot of cash on my E24, and the motor had 30k fewer miles than I had previously assumed!
 

jvrenaudon

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I am interested in this topic because I own a Vincent motorcycle. In this context a "matching numbers" model is worth something in the order of £10k more than a non-matching numbers model and history is littered with tales of the lengths to which people have gone in order to achieve the 20% higher sale prices. In this case not only does the Upper Frame Member carry a die-stamped number but so does the separate Rear Frame Member. The engine number is also die stamped on a crankcase half (1900 digits apart from the frame number) and then every large cast aluminium case carries a unique mating number. Even so, some "fakes" slip through the net, leaving disappointed buyers. I have noticed an escalation in the attention paid to this in BMW circles of late as well.

I can confirm that my CSL carries the same seven-digit serial number on the engine block (just above the starter), the under-bonnet firewall (just in front of the brake fluid reservoir on the RHD) and, of course, on the VIN plate. Best wishes, John.
 

Marco 54

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I am interested in this topic because I own a Vincent motorcycle. In this context a "matching numbers" model is worth something in the order of £10k more than a non-matching numbers model and history is littered with tales of the lengths to which people have gone in order to achieve the 20% higher sale prices. In this case not only does the Upper Frame Member carry a die-stamped number but so does the separate Rear Frame Member. The engine number is also die stamped on a crankcase half (1900 digits apart from the frame number) and then every large cast aluminium case carries a unique mating number. Even so, some "fakes" slip through the net, leaving disappointed buyers. I have noticed an escalation in the attention paid to this in BMW circles of late as well.

I can confirm that my CSL carries the same seven-digit serial number on the engine block (just above the starter), the under-bonnet firewall (just in front of the brake fluid reservoir on the RHD) and, of course, on the VIN plate. Best wishes, John.

That is fascinating, John.

Did I read somewhere that Phil Vincent drove Bristol cars (with BMW engines)?
 

NilsH

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I find this Mercedes video interesting. The length they can go to verify a car (although this Gullwing is a "little" bit more expensive...).
(you can turn on automated translation)
 

Marco 54

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I find this Mercedes video interesting. The length they can go to verify a car (although this Gullwing is a "little" bit more expensive...).
(you can turn on automated translation)

Wonderful, informative video. Thank you Nils for posting this.
I wonder what a 3 month investigation by the might of MB and Daimler AG costs in order to establish originality?
 

Markos

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I just know I'm going to get shot up here but here is my understanding:

Number on Vin plate;
Number on top of firewall (stamped in).
Number on engine block on LH side near bell housing;

These should all match.
You could probably take it further to include that the build dates on the head and block match the build details from BMW.

@Markos @Keshav @everybodyelse?
That do we think?

My name keeps getting thrown into the expert mix on threads as of late. I sure like to talk a lot and can type very fast, but remember that post count has nothing to do with experience or expertise. :) I've never owned a classic car worth caring about matching numbers. I've only owned my BMW for about 4 years and I've driven it less than 20 miles. :D I really only know how the car goes together, even though I've never put one together like many many other less vocal members have.

Disclaimer aside, I'm deviating a bit with my wall of text, but my two cents since you explicitly asked for it.


If I were buying a numbers matching e9, I would want all three (or four for US models) VIN's to match. I would want to see stamped VIN's, not engraved VIN's(which I and others in this thread have seen). If I were to buy a restored e9 or otherwise molested e9 (aren't they all), I would take condition of the car above all else. Once the playing field was equal, I would take the numbers matching car over the non.

CSL:

If I purchased a CSL, I would specifically seek out a numbers matching car. The folks who buy CSL's also buy other marks where numbers matching is important, and sell to buyers where numbers matching is important. Guilt by association. I would however take provenance over a numbers matching car. I would gladly take a CSL with provenance and an M49 in it. ;). There are still many aspects of a CSL that make it a CSL besides the motor. You have the special seats, steering wheel, aluminum bits, road wheels, suspension, thin sheet metal, bumpers, etc. If your CSL isn't numbers matching or you can't find a numbers matching car in your price range, I wouldn't lose much sleep over it. :D. I wouldn't buy a rough CSL over a nice one solely because it was numbers matching. The reason being is that restoring a CSL "properly" is Pandora's box. The sheet metal is different, the parts are rare, and everyone is ready and willing to judge the finished product. Buy a rough CSL because it is a good deal, or a fun project, or a sound investment.

Survivor:

If I found a survivor car that isn't restored, then numbers matching would be something to justify all of the other body and interior flaws that should be left original. I would ideally like the aluminum VIN plate on the fender to be original, with original rivets. I would do my best to back-date items that had date stamps. There are a lot of date stamps on the car, some visible and some not. The cylinder head, the underside of the valve cover, the coolant flange, the wheels (steel and aluminum), etc. It seems frivolous, but what else am I going to tinker with on a car that shouldn't be restored.

Buying Number Matching vs Keeping Numbers Matching:


These are two totally separate animals IMO. It does make sense to buy a numbers matching car, especially if it is of equal condition and price to it's peers. If someone is advertising a car as numbers matching, they probably want their special numbers matching price also. That is when I start to lose interest. I would rather find a numbers matching car in a barn, not on Hemmings. As far as swap on an existing car, numbers matching is important enough for me to keep the 2.8 block on my otherwise bastardized e9. I just see no reason to ditch the motor. It's not broken. It runs fairly well. I'll never really drive it that fast. If I am so inclined, I can eek more power out of it if I desire with the same mods that a B35 gets, the result will just be proportionately less dramatic. If I did switch to one of the three qualified replacements seen below, I would probably stick with the painful decision to store the short block. The single reason being - to appease the Porsche owners that chime in on BAT when I eventually sell it. :D The funny thing is that nobody is going to spend thousands to have a mechanic remove an M90, B35, or dirty B34 only to install a 2.8. Nobody wants a 2.8 coffee table,. Nobody wants a 2.8 eating precious space for extra wheels in the garage. Nobody wants to maneuver their lawn mower around the rusty 2.8 short block in their shed. But this is what we do for "numbers matching". :D
 

Stevehose

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no numbers on the gearbox so just chassis and block have numbers. In the case of USA coupes, we got engine block, firewall, and top of steering column.
 

Mal CSL 3.0

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I note on the BMW classic website; for certain rare models they will only provide BMW certification based on inspection by BMW archives experts. They will happily inspect “but any worldwide travel costs would be at expense of owner”! .... I suspect the rare BMWs like M1’s, 507s, maybe even origional BATs fall into that category.

Who knows.... but maybe in future CSLs, may also have become valuable to the point where BMW inspection is needed before they will issue certificates.

Hence maybe worth getting in sooner rather than later for a certificate. Currently they can still be easily done online.
 

mr bump

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In 1996, alpina became a "car manufacturer" in there own right, you purchased an alpina and not a converted bmw ( but basicly it's a converted bmw) Bearing in mind, pre 96 alpina cars were bmws with a tuning/styling kit bolted on by a authorised dealer. When this happend, alpina orderd every scrap of paperwork to be destroyed by their authorised dealers so no trace could be found of all the cars which had been converted. According to Keith borrington who was the main alpina man at sytners on Huntingdon street nottingham, they didn't want their good name associated with their old "kits" going forward. So now it's down to enthusiasts to keep the history of the old cars going and available for future owners.
Imo, this was a pathetic move by alpina, I'm all for advancement in life, it guarantees the species, but getting rid of our past is just not cricket!
 

Philippe db

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In 1996, alpina became a "car manufacturer" in there own right, you purchased an alpina and not a converted bmw ( but basicly it's a converted bmw) Bearing in mind, pre 96 alpina cars were bmws with a tuning/styling kit bolted on by a authorised dealer.!

This is not correct , Alpina was registered as a car manufacturer in 1983.
 

mr bump

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Really? Only by the Germans. And "hand made" doesn't mean production car. In the UK, every alpina converted car was a bolt on "kit" and carried a bmw chassis number and was registers as a bmw (then the model it was converted from). Circa 1996, alpina cars carried their own identity and the logbook said alpina.
 
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lloyd

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A little off the mark?

Can anyone shed light on "stamped" numbers found on transmissions or other drive train components as seen in the example s below? Date codes? Batch nos? ?? I ask the question, having heard (sans confirmation) that some of these numbers might actually relate to vehicle identification numbers. One can only guess that stamped numbers on special cars might have components that were somehow documented and/or cross referenced with VINs or production dates, but I have never seen any reliable confirmation of this practice.

Numbers/letters can obviously be stamped or even restamped to identify specially ordered or re-manufactured components. Various machine shops and engine builders might add their own stamp or numbers for their own purposes and original numbers can also be "enhanced" to fit the occasion.


Transmission ID thread>> https://www.e9coupe.com/forum/threads/getrag-transmission-numbers-decoding.25157/

189/5 70 ?
bmw-e9-e12-e28-e24-e10-2002-m5-m6-getriebe-sportgetriebe-dogleg-gearbox-2655-mit-tachoanschluss-getrag-e21.jpg



file-6e299e51-eaab-4bb0-a702-0489b6b8e43a-1950-00000250f643a7b6-jpg.25828
 
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Markos

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You are mixing two different things. Alpina became a certified manufacturer in 1983. Barring a few exceptions, Alpina didn't manufacture RHD cars until the 90's however, so Sytner did the conversions on BMW's. Since Sytner conversions are considered 'real Alpinas', I suspect that Alpina would verify it as such. This can be easily verified by any member with a 1985 - 1993 Alpina that was verified/certified by Alpina.

In 1996, alpina became a "car manufacturer" in there own right, you purchased an alpina and not a converted bmw ( but basicly it's a converted bmw) Bearing in mind, pre 96 alpina cars were bmws with a tuning/styling kit bolted on by a authorised dealer. When this happend, alpina orderd every scrap of paperwork to be destroyed by their authorised dealers so no trace could be found of all the cars which had been converted. According to Keith borrington who was the main alpina man at sytners on Huntingdon street nottingham, they didn't want their good name associated with their old "kits" going forward. So now it's down to enthusiasts to keep the history of the old cars going and available for future owners.
Imo, this was a pathetic move by alpina, I'm all for advancement in life, it guarantees the species, but getting rid of our past is just not cricket!

This is directly from the Sytner website, not using a quote tag since it shrinks the text.

"Sytner has been the sole UK concessionaire for ALPINA since 1985 and has developed a truly unique knowledge base, proudly caring for the ALPINA community. ALPINA draws upon half a century of engineering innovation and motorsport success to offer a uniquely accomplished range, providing class-leading levels of performance, comfort and economy. Such effortless pace and luxury is complimented by a degree of exclusivity enjoyed only the by the likes of Rolls-Royce, with less than 2,000 ALPINAs produced annually.

LAVALINA interiors ensure each ALPINA can be as individual as its owner, with unique ALPINA Classic-style alloys, optional decals and blue instruments creating an ambience of understated purpose. Cross-pollination between BMW and ALPINA engineers ensure each ALPINA is backed by a full BMW warranty, can be serviced in any BMW workshop and benefit from best-in-class infotainment systems.

A manufacturer in its own right since 1983, ALPINA now produces the world's fastest diesel production car in the D3 Bi-Turbo and the world's fastest diesel SUV in the XD3 Bi-Turbo, while the D5 is widely regarded by the motoring press as the best long-distance companion.

Brand Manager Gary Lott and his team at ALPINA GB would be delighted to introduce you to a selection of these unique and exclusive cars, either in our Nottingham showroom or at a place and time of your convenience.

For more information on ALPINA, please call Gary Lott on 0115 934 1414 or email [email protected]"
 

mr bump

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I've owned 4 alpinas,.x2 E34 B10s, E30 C2.7 and an E36. All were.pre 96 and all were registerd on their V5 logbook as the model they were converted from. Nothing alpina was ever on the logbook but all were genuine cars verified by alpina.

Now let's get one thing straight. Sytner, are the world's worst dealership, fact. Their own employees, me included for 3 years in 91-94 selling alpina at huntingdon street, will tell you that records kept were awful. The numbering of the cars was truly astonishing. Most of the plaque numbers were either the date jumbled up or the mechanics date of birth jumbled up.
My point being Marcos, in the UK, the alpina never appeared on a V5 until circa 1996, it was just glasses as a tuning kit/conversion.
3 of the E31s converted were all numbers after the dates of birth of one of the workshop managers!!
And to give you an insight into how much alpina mean to sytner, in 2009, I'm looking at a new B10, and around the sales area is pics of past alpina racing and road cars, I asked the salesman what he thinks of the pics........"haven't got a clue, what are they?".....And that sums sytner (or shitner as we call it)up
 

jvrenaudon

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Marcos, In answer to your question about Phillip Vincent I think you're correct - I think that he drove a Bristol in the 1950's. Thank you for pointing out the BMW connection. I was unaware of this. Best, John.
 

craterface

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hi all.

Hope this isn’t a stupid question....

1 What exactly determines whether a coupe is a matching numbers car.

In the Porsche 356 world, it was matching chassis (multiple stamps on body), engine and transmission numbers.

Is it the same for the E9 coupe?

2. how does one check whether a car does have matching numbers/original engine etc. Again in the Porsche world I was able to order a “Kardex” from Porsche factory directly with the original details.

Do BMW provide a similar service?

Thanks in advance from an E9 novice.

Michael.

Also, Michael, be aware that the engine number can be hard to see back there by the firewall. It's down in there so you have to do a little hunting with a flashlight, especially if there is any grime back there. And it is hard to photograph with a phone. I had to use the video feature on my phone and then get a still image from that. I sent that to Andreas when I was applying for my certificate.
Scott
 
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