What do you all think about that CSL on BringATrailer?

[John H.]

Not selling it, but check out the black beauty on Bringatrailer.com. Beautiful 46k CSL with all the fixins. And how about that price?!?! Having lived in LA for the last 15 years, wish I had seen this being driven by the 'elderly owners' and made an offer of my own. Dreams, dreams......

 

[CSfan]

180K??

180K :shock: well at least it wasn't a tribute for 105K.. all types of toys are up for sale due to the economy but these guys are asking way to much and not keeping the economy in mind.

 

[RonP]

180K well at least it wasn't a tribute for 105K.. all types of toys are up for sale due to the economy but these guys are asking way to much and not keeping the economy in mind.

I don't mean to be a spoiler here, but the economy really doesn't have an impact on the buyers of these cars priced in the upper end of the market. Here are two more sales this month:

1972 3.0 CS-Werk Shop restoration $110,000
1970 CSL Batmobile (yes another tribute car) sold for over $135,000

Your comments are just speculation of what you "think" is happening in the market, while mine are "actual sales" that I am tracking.

I don't mean to be contradictory or have this serve as a personal attack on you, I am just trying to keep the record straight.

 

[Stan]

Is it time to call Hagerty and increase the "agreed value" of our coupes????

 

[chicane]

Not selling it, but check out the black beauty on Bringatrailer.com. Beautiful 46k CSL with all the fixins. And how about that price?!?! Having lived in LA for the last 15 years, wish I had seen this being driven by the 'elderly owners' and made an offer of my own. Dreams, dreams......

It is "believed" to be 46K miles. For $180K dollars you had better KNOW it is 46K miles. If the odo is no longer working that would not bode well.
Besides that $180K is outrageous.

http://bringatrailer.com/2008/12/31/bat-exclusive-1975-bmw-30csl-batmobile/#comments

 

[chicane]

180K well at least it wasn't a tribute for 105K.. all types of toys are up for sale due to the economy but these guys are asking way to much and not keeping the economy in mind.

I don't mean to be a spoiler here, but the economy really doesn't have an impact on the buyers of these cars priced in the upper end of the market. Here are two more sales this month:

1972 3.0 CS-Werk Shop restoration $110,000
1970 CSL Batmobile (yes another tribute car) sold for over $135,000

Your comments are just speculation of what you "think" is happening in the market, while mine are "actual sales" that I am tracking.

I don't mean to be contradictory or have this serve as a personal attack on you, I am just trying to keep the record straight.

The record IS: THE ECONOMY SUCKS RIGHT NOW! AND it really does have an impact on the buyers of these cars priced in the upper end of the market.

The economy isn't just hitting the little people. Ever hear of a guy named Bernie Madoff? Wealthy people have been unloading their toys left and right, read the news. There is a glut in the high end car market right now due to wealth folks all dumping their cars on the market at the same time. Desperate people asking for desperate prices. And do you have VIN numbers for these cars and independent verification of these prices?

 

[coupe74]

value of cars to the elite

In regards to crazy car values, I was sitting with a friend in the stands at a Concourse Italiano in Carmel some years ago when someone drove up an early Ferrari driven by Phil Hill (I think) that the owner found in a warehouse in Italy and bought for $5 million, put another $1 million into restoration, then donated it to his foundation for $30 million. I figure that netted him around $2 million in reduced taxes after all costs.

My friend then catered a party that night where the guest of honor said he had around $500 million in cars in climate controlled warehouses around the world. This guy had a few cars in the Concourse de Elegance that he had flown in by private jet from Europe for the show.

Do you think either of these guys would blink at $180,000 for a car they wanted, irrespective of what it was "worth"? I suspect they would give it as much thought as I would give to buying a sandwich.

 

[chicane]

Re: value of cars to the elite

In regards to crazy car values, I was sitting with a friend in the stands at a Concourse Italiano in Carmel some years ago when someone drove up an early Ferrari driven by Phil Hill (I think) that the owner found in a warehouse in Italy and bought for $5 million, put another $1 million into restoration, then donated it to his foundation for $30 million. I figure that netted him around $2 million in reduced taxes after all costs.

My friend then catered a party that night where the guest of honor said he had around $500 million in cars in climate controlled warehouses around the world. This guy had a few cars in the Concourse de Elegance that he had flown in by private jet from Europe for the show.

Do you think either of these guys would blink at $180,000 for a car they wanted, irrespective of what it was "worth"? I suspect they would give it as much thought as I would give to buying a sandwich.

Do you think guys who make that kind of money are stupid?
Your point is they will buy anything at any price just because they have the money. Well I have a 1970 Pontiac GTO I would like to sell them for $250K. It's also a vintage car of considerable intrinsic value and since these rich guys have have that kind of money I think I can get $250K for it.

 

[abe3.0CSi]

Economy affects everyone. Early in the 90s we went through this and cars that were sold in the millions a few years prior were sold for 1/2 price. It is ludicrous to think that the well to do are not affected by this economy. Sure, there will always be the Bill Gates outthere...but get real guys its such an old cliche to say "the rich......" One more thing, these guys didn't get rich by buying high...they will be patient and buy at the right price which may be in the next few years and not at this time.
abe

 

[acat2002]

The record IS: THE ECONOMY SUCKS RIGHT NOW! AND it really does have an impact on the buyers of these cars priced in the upper end of the market.

The economy isn't just hitting the little people. Ever hear of a guy named Bernie Madoff? Wealthy people have been unloading their toys left and right, read the news. There is a glut in the high end car market right now due to wealth folks all dumping their cars on the market at the same time. Desperate people asking for desperate prices. And do you have VIN numbers for these cars and independent verification of these prices?

Agreed! (never thought I'd actually have to support Chicane's market suppression, but he's right on here)

BTW, "high-end" cars to me means north of $1MM (SWB Ferraris, pre-war Alfas, Gullwings and the like). Sorry, but CSLs are not in that echelon.

I was chatting with a few folks at a VSCCA vintage event at Lime Rock back in October who own several real high end cars. These people attend and actually buy at auctions in Europe, Pebble etc. Both stated that the market for really high-end cars (like $1MM+ Ferraris) had not been affected as badly as the market for cars under $500,000. Keep in mind that was in October and things have worsened considerably since then. You'd have to be living on another planet if you're not aware of the far-reaching tentacles of the economy. To be fair, and to bring up an argument in the other direction, another person I know was unsuccessful in a sealed bid for a 1938 328 BMW who bid (what he thought was full value). This was one month ago. So yes, there are examples of sales that do defy the current conditions.

Bottom line is that prices have been impacted. I'd like to see verification and sale dates of these two coupes Ron P references. I don't mean to sound rude, but numbers get thrown around all the time without anyone being called to the mat on their validity.
Didn't a really nice Golf Yellow CSL sell recently for $70,000?

Nothing would please me more than to see this black CSL command $180,000, or even $150,000 for that matter. I'm NOT price-bashing, but come on, let's see reality here. Prove me wrong and I will graciously apologize to anyone that gets their panties in a twist.

Let me put it a better way.... Everyone reading this and who participates on this board loves E9s, right?.....and would love to have the best of the best, right? If I gave you $180,000 today, had it wired into you bank account, would you buy this car? Answer honestly.

 

[acat2002]

Re: value of cars to the elite

My friend then catered a party that night where the guest of honor said he had around $500 million in cars in climate controlled warehouses around the world. This guy had a few cars in the Concourse de Elegance that he had flown in by private jet from Europe for the show.

Do you think either of these guys would blink at $180,000 for a car they wanted, irrespective of what it was "worth"? I suspect they would give it as much thought as I would give to buying a sandwich.

This guest of dishoner sounds pretty humble!

I completely disagree that $180,000 to most high net worth individuals is like buying a sandwich. Maybe if he's a professional athelete or the Saudi royalty would see money that way (but since neither have any good taste, they wouldn't be shopping for an E9 anyway, so its a moot argument!)

Some of the wealthiest people I have ever met track every dollar. Most wealthy individuals are typically prudent with money and are always very aware of overpriced items and services.

Joe the Plumber always views "The Rich" through this misunderstood lens that everything comes easy and money is in inexhaustible supply. What can I say, they don't get it and probably never will.

I don't care if you gave me $20MM to spend on a car collection, I'd never pay $180,000 for a street CSL. If we were talking about a Hans Stuck-driven CSL that raced in LeMans or something all bets are off, but were talking about a street car here. Again, good luck to the seller (and all the other E9 sellers asking steep prices), but I have yet to see a proven verfied sale to justify this price.

 

[dp]

Let me put it a better way.... Everyone reading this and who participates on this board loves E9s, right?.....and would love to have the best of the best, right? If I gave you $180,000 today, had it wired into you bank account, would you buy this car? Answer honestly.

If you're asking would I take that L for free as a gift from you? Of course.

If you're asking would I spend that money on this car if you gave me the money and I could do anything (else) I'd want with it? No. Absolutely not.

Let's see, from the photos looks like the a-pillar bulkheads at the kickpanels have been cut for speakers, thats a pity. Fixing that either means a serious cobble or a re-spray after massive dis-assembly. Leaving it alone OR fixing it immediately takes it WAY out of the 6-figure league. Wonder if the rear window package tray has been cut also?

Guys, if this was a bona-fide 180k$ CSL (and it is hard to imagine ANY 2nd-series CSL being valued by anyone so highly) ... this car would have already been consigned to one of the previously referenced high brow auction houses that appeal to the upper crust of auto investors and (with apologies to the BaT owners) not to us guys who drive our own trailer rigs, or surf the net look at car fotos.

That car was a lucky find, unfortunate that the new owner seemingly has no interest in driving it...and only wants to flip the car, at (perhaps) 40-50% of the huge asking price. And, for me, that's still way too much.

 

[John H.]

46k miles

Chicane wrote: It is "believed" to be 46K miles. For $180K dollars you had better KNOW it is 46K miles.

If I were spending $180k to buy this car (and I probably only would if it were given to me by acat2002!!), then you had better be darned sure that I would substantiate the 46k mileage. That car would be gone over by the best mechanic I could hire and we'd pull the head off and examine everything we could for appreciable wear and tear. Forgive me for not mentioning this fact in my light-hearted post., but as I am not a lawyer, or the buyer or seller of this car, I just tell it like I read it. In the immortal words of David St. Hubbins of Spinal Tap, "I believe virtually everything I read. And I think that is what makes me more of a selective human than someone who doesn't believe anything."

And acat2002, thanks for the $180K!!! But I think I used your money to buy that red CSL in australia, then used the remainder to throw a big CS party back here in the states. Oh, and on shipping it cross Pacific.....

With a wink and a grin and a happy new year to all, John

 

[CSfan]

well said...

Very good points! This board is filled with men and women of class. I belong to many boards and I have never seen such respect and educated arguments. THANKS! Ron...that goes for you too.

 

[pamp]

CSL

I think it would be safe to say that we all desire a CSL, those of us who own lowlier heavy weights. But man, @ the price, I would be too paranoid to drive the thing for fear of being T- boned by some moron with a cell phone plugged to his/her ear. Or a track day mishap... Will it fit in my living room ?
Bitch about the economic melt down... many of the aforementioned frugal (read greedy) super-rich have culpability here. The profits that were pulled out of the sub-prime mortgage scheme, prior to the bust of this, is only one example. The old adage, " too good to be true " applies to all investments, automotive or otherwise.
Anyone wasting time watching the Barrett-Jackson ? Other than that cute chick who works the floor... Oh boy, but inflated prices abound. Sometimes the, "I always wanted a car like that" seems to overrule common sense. But hey, please spend your money where you see fit. Only the individual knows the true value, to themselves. Otherwise, it's none of my business. I still hold the opinion that the coupes are under valued, due to the rarity of the species.
By the way, I do my own plumbing and repairs, thank you.

 

[dp]

Re: CSL

Anyone wasting time watching the Barrett-Jackson ? Other than that cute chick who works the floor... Oh boy, but inflated prices abound. Sometimes the, "I always wanted a car like that" seems to overrule common sense. But hey, please spend your money where you see fit. Only the individual knows the true value, to themselves. Otherwise, it's none of my business.

Do yourself a favor and fly down to Scottsdale to see whats going on there. It is always best to be informed when sharing your opinion.

 

[pamp]

Re:CSL

dp, where have I gone wrong? Quit drinking ? What ? I believe the TV is from Las Vegas

 

[coupeguy]

Consider who is selling this car, and who either owned it previously or is having the Pomona seller sell it for him. Who else could it possibly be in Pomona other than the infamous Ben Miller of CSi and 2002ad fame? I know the car did belong to david baker in Oroville, CA and ben miller is one of his best (only?) friends. Baker lied and cheated me on a car purchase which was one of the most blatant cases in my experience of someone misrepresenting a car. Baker owned the car, and now Miller is selling it. Miller is also one of the people who has cheated, lied and stolen from me. All in the line of E9 business.

Is the car worth 180k, maybe, maybe not. Is Cary Ida's Alpina CSL worth the $500k that they are asking for it, probably not. Bonifide sales of CSLs have not exceeded $153 as far as I know, the one at Christies in London in 2006 sold to some Saudi greedbag for that amount. It was not even a series 2 bat, but rather a fairly well used Bat series 1 (2275 car).

Any car is worth what someone will pay for it, nothing less, nothing more. This particular car's ownership puts its history in serious doubt, I would trust nothing I heard and maybe half of what I could see. If anyone on this board or who reads this board can afford that much for a CSL, look further for a better bargain. I know of a very, very nice series 2 bat that sold a couple of years ago in Europe for a bit over 50k euros. Perhaps if anyone else was selling it I would concur with the pricing, since it is within the realm of current reality for very rare BMW's. Will someone who spends a million plus on a rare Ferrari or Maserati be interested in this car, I doubt it. Its not that rare and its not that collectable/desirable. Nobody loves CSLs more than I, having owned 8 of them including two batmobiles, but I do know they do not attract the really big dollar collectors.....yet. Will they ever? Who knows?

To anyone seriously interested in this car, BE CAREFUL, the seller puts it in seriously questionable territory. Find someone to inspect it who knows the cars, like Peter Sliskovich in CA. And good luck.

 

[pamp]

XXXX

 

[John H.]

the other thread

The thread line at BringATrailer is up to 31 and is almost as amusing as this one. Some of the contributors on the thread look awfully familiar!! Woe betide anyone who tries to get one past this board!