CSL For Sale

[coupeguy]

Could not agree more with RonP. Ignorance is the stock in trade with some of the "contributors" to this forum. I try to stay out of these harangues, but the ignorance of someone telling the group there were two different noses is beyond my capacity to ignore. There was ONE standard nose, the only diff was in large holes for shocks on the 74US car, slots for bumpers and no slots for cars sold bumperless.

BMW can tell you no more than the build date, shipping date, shipping destination from the factory and the original color. No other records appear to be avail to them. This is ludicrous too, but they seem to have chosen to ignore their heritage cars, amply evidenced by their continuing price gouging on replacement parts. I know a fellow who supplies parts to BMW Mobile Tradition for coupes, and he now tells me BMW is buying and stocking virtually nothing that he did sell to them.

People who do not have the knowledge of the subject and who expound on it constantly are indeed the bane of this forum, already driving velocewest away, a nice guy and a helpful resource. I dont see much from real knowledgeable people like coupeking any more either, the vituperative comments and crap attitudes are enough to make anyone who actually knows a bit about the E9 shrink in horror.

Comments like the Golf CSL recently sold being a "real CSL" are ludicrous. There is only one thing that truly defines a CSL, the vin. If it doesnt start with a 2210, 2211, 2212, 2275, 2285 or 4355 it is NOT a CSL. I have owned eight, and have inspected countless others, anything is possible since the cars were built to order.

The fact that the one that has been beaten to death on this latest harrangue does not have stainless wheel well arch trim makes me wonder a bit, but it would not be the first one I have seen without. Parts are missing, if the car did come with a tool kit which some of them did it would have had the two cardboard elephant hide covered panels on either side of it. Never seen one with trunk wheel well plastic covers and elephant hide on the inside of the quarters either, but that also does not mean the factory did not put them there originally. So wake up people, I know this particular seller and there are plenty of other reasons not to deal with him, but make your own judgement and decision about the car and deal with him cautiously. The fact that most of the really nasty comments are from people who couldnt afford a CSL if they had to is another reason to ignore their rantings.

This is my last attempt to help anyone on this forum understand the history and background of CSLs, a car I have collected for the last thirty years. I fully expect the usual barrage of ignorant, vituperative comments, but will ignore them and consider the source. Easy to see why other Euro types have given up as well.

 

[coupeguy]

Could not agree more with RonP. Ignorance is the stock in trade with some of the "contributors" to this forum. I try to stay out of these harangues, but the ignorance of someone telling the group there were two different noses is beyond my capacity to ignore. There was ONE standard nose, the only diff was in large holes for shocks on the 74US car, slots for bumpers and no slots for cars sold bumperless.

BMW can tell you no more than the build date, shipping date, shipping destination from the factory and the original color. No other records appear to be avail to them. This is ludicrous too, but they seem to have chosen to ignore their heritage cars, amply evidenced by their continuing price gouging on replacement parts. I know a fellow who supplies parts to BMW Mobile Tradition for coupes, and he now tells me BMW is buying and stocking virtually nothing that he did sell to them.

People who do not have the knowledge of the subject and who expound on it constantly are indeed the bane of this forum, already driving velocewest away, a nice guy and a helpful resource. I dont see much from real knowledgeable people like coupeking any more either, the vituperative comments and crap attitudes are enough to make anyone who actually knows a bit about the E9 shrink in horror.

Comments like the Golf CSL recently sold being a "real CSL" are ludicrous. There is only one thing that truly defines a CSL, the vin. If it doesnt start with a 2210, 2211, 2212, 2275, 2285 or 4355 it is NOT a CSL. I have owned eight, and have inspected countless others, anything is possible since the cars were built to order.

The fact that the one that has been beaten to death on this latest harrangue does not have stainless wheel well arch trim makes me wonder a bit, but it would not be the first one I have seen without. Parts are missing, if the car did come with a tool kit which some of them did it would have had the two cardboard elephant hide covered panels on either side of it. Never seen one with trunk wheel well plastic covers and elephant hide on the inside of the quarters either, but that also does not mean the factory did not put them there originally. So wake up people, I know this particular seller and there are plenty of other reasons not to deal with him, but make your own judgement and decision about the car and deal with him cautiously. The fact that most of the really nasty comments are from people who couldnt afford a CSL if they had to is another reason to ignore their rantings.

This is my last attempt to help anyone on this forum understand the history and background of CSLs, a car I have collected for the last thirty years. I fully expect the usual barrage of ignorant, vituperative comments, but will ignore them and consider the source. Easy to see why other Euro types have given up as well.

 

[timt]

Ron, you asked the question whether there were any LHD City Pack cars delivered - answer is yes. Whilst the vast majority of RHD cars were City Pack Spec (most would consider all were, but ...) the proportion of LHD cars with the City Pack was relatively small.

Was about to comment on VINs but just seen coupeguy's post, said it for me plus some other valid comments on CSLs versus generic CS/CSis. The car is "missing" the SS wheel arch extensions (eyebrows) but could be for any number of reasons and replaceable, at a price.

 

[timt]

Ron, you asked the question whether there were any LHD City Pack cars delivered - answer is yes. Whilst the vast majority of RHD cars were City Pack Spec (most would consider all were, but ...) the proportion of LHD cars with the City Pack was relatively small.

Was about to comment on VINs but just seen coupeguy's post, said it for me plus some other valid comments on CSLs versus generic CS/CSis. The car is "missing" the SS wheel arch extensions (eyebrows) but could be for any number of reasons and replaceable, at a price.

 

[RonP]

BTW...the seller mentioned to me that he has the SS wheel arches, just hasn't installed them yet.

 

[RonP]

BTW...the seller mentioned to me that he has the SS wheel arches, just hasn't installed them yet.

 

[TDC]

I've got 2275040 - it's a stadtpaket CSL from the same VIN run as this one. It has many of the same features or options as this car. It seems as though the CSLs tend to have the most similarities amongst VIN runs (with exceptions as well). As coupeguy points out, they're all "real CSLs". It may be most useful to compare these cars amongst thier VIN run peers - UK RHD cars, late series bats, early series non-injected cars, and the 2275xxx injected continental euro delivery cars etc.

My car is very similar to TJs - both Polaris "city pack" cars from the 2275xxx run, but his had an aluminum trunk, and power steering when he purchased it. Mine has a steel trunk lid with tool box (which needs to be restored ) , and manual steering - go figure.

I would generally refer to any CSL that originally came with big chrome bumpers as a "city pack" car - probably the single most definitive feature. As far as exceptions go, I've heard of rumors of late series bats with factory sun roofs - did the factory mount that in the thin sheet metal roof panel?

Please give the seller a break - this stuff can be very confusing to a person new to these specific cars.

 

[TDC]

I've got 2275040 - it's a stadtpaket CSL from the same VIN run as this one. It has many of the same features or options as this car. It seems as though the CSLs tend to have the most similarities amongst VIN runs (with exceptions as well). As coupeguy points out, they're all "real CSLs". It may be most useful to compare these cars amongst thier VIN run peers - UK RHD cars, late series bats, early series non-injected cars, and the 2275xxx injected continental euro delivery cars etc.

My car is very similar to TJs - both Polaris "city pack" cars from the 2275xxx run, but his had an aluminum trunk, and power steering when he purchased it. Mine has a steel trunk lid with tool box (which needs to be restored ) , and manual steering - go figure.

I would generally refer to any CSL that originally came with big chrome bumpers as a "city pack" car - probably the single most definitive feature. As far as exceptions go, I've heard of rumors of late series bats with factory sun roofs - did the factory mount that in the thin sheet metal roof panel?

Please give the seller a break - this stuff can be very confusing to a person new to these specific cars.

 

[RonP]

I also have a City Package CSL that was one car ahead of TJ Noto's car. Mine has some wierd options as well: Crank front windows, fixed rear, factory a/c, hood release AND hood pins (never can be too safe! :lol: ), full tool kit, and no power steering. I removed the front bumper and have installed a CSL front spoiler and a rear spoiler. Polaris/Schwartz.

 

[RonP]

I also have a City Package CSL that was one car ahead of TJ Noto's car. Mine has some wierd options as well: Crank front windows, fixed rear, factory a/c, hood release AND hood pins (never can be too safe! :lol: ), full tool kit, and no power steering. I removed the front bumper and have installed a CSL front spoiler and a rear spoiler. Polaris/Schwartz.

 

[eastsideM3]

Yeah this was kind of my point as well. BMW has no record of what actually they put on every car. It takes an expert like you that has worked with these cars for so long to help determine it. I think the one known fact about the first 169 early carb CSL was there was no options, they basically all came the same and were avaialbe in only a few colors. Very basic stripped cars.
I think also if a car is in the range of these early lightweight cars, its value is most certainly effected by whether or not the correct parts are still on the car. Certainly a difference between the Inka lightweight and this car which was originally advertised as the same.

 

[eastsideM3]

Yeah this was kind of my point as well. BMW has no record of what actually they put on every car. It takes an expert like you that has worked with these cars for so long to help determine it. I think the one known fact about the first 169 early carb CSL was there was no options, they basically all came the same and were avaialbe in only a few colors. Very basic stripped cars.
I think also if a car is in the range of these early lightweight cars, its value is most certainly effected by whether or not the correct parts are still on the car. Certainly a difference between the Inka lightweight and this car which was originally advertised as the same.

 

[eastsideM3]

Yeah this was kind of my point as well. BMW has no record of what actually they put on every car. It takes an expert like Coupeguy that has worked with these cars for so long to help determine it. I think the one known fact about the first 169 early carb CSL was there was no options, they basically all came the same and were avaialbe in only a few colors. Very basic stripped cars.
I think also if a car is in the range of these early lightweight cars, its value is most certainly effected by whether or not the correct parts are still on the car. Certainly a difference between the Inka lightweight and this car which was originally advertised as the same.

 

[eastsideM3]

Yeah this was kind of my point as well. BMW has no record of what actually they put on every car. It takes an expert like Coupeguy that has worked with these cars for so long to help determine it. I think the one known fact about the first 169 early carb CSL was there was no options, they basically all came the same and were avaialbe in only a few colors. Very basic stripped cars.
I think also if a car is in the range of these early lightweight cars, its value is most certainly effected by whether or not the correct parts are still on the car. Certainly a difference between the Inka lightweight and this car which was originally advertised as the same.

 

[schnell540]

Also, the Golf yellow CSL that sold last year (from my inside information) was full of rust. I know who purchased the car and it will easily be a $100k restoration.

Although your post does not say that I did not disclose the condition of my golf CSL, I want to make sure there is no misunderstanding.

"Full of rust" is a significant overstatement -- either from that unknown inside source or a misunderstand of what that source said. The car did have a very questionable prior rust repair and that is why I sold it at a price that I considered otherwise low. Unlike the person who sold it to me, I disclosed everything I knew about the condition of the car to all that inquired.

That said, the restoration may well be $100k, but not because of the rust or overall condition, but because the guy who bought wants to take it down to bare metal with literally every nut and bolt removed and replaced: a true complete restoration (the werk shop is doing the job). The rust, worstcase senario, was $30k which would include a complete repaint (according to CoupeKing). That car, as many will attest, would then be a VERY VERY nice CSL -- nicer than most coupes found here or elsewhere (although not a true full restoration).

But to use that car as benchmark for any pricing is simply wrong. It was a car with a significant question mark which all potential buyers were told about and buying it involved a known risk.

PS - Had I not disclosed the question mark, I could have probably sold it for 15 or 20k more -- especially to an overseas buyer. But that's not how I roll (yes, pun intended).

 

[schnell540]

Also, the Golf yellow CSL that sold last year (from my inside information) was full of rust. I know who purchased the car and it will easily be a $100k restoration.

Although your post does not say that I did not disclose the condition of my golf CSL, I want to make sure there is no misunderstanding.

"Full of rust" is a significant overstatement -- either from that unknown inside source or a misunderstand of what that source said. The car did have a very questionable prior rust repair and that is why I sold it at a price that I considered otherwise low. Unlike the person who sold it to me, I disclosed everything I knew about the condition of the car to all that inquired.

That said, the restoration may well be $100k, but not because of the rust or overall condition, but because the guy who bought wants to take it down to bare metal with literally every nut and bolt removed and replaced: a true complete restoration (the werk shop is doing the job). The rust, worstcase senario, was $30k which would include a complete repaint (according to CoupeKing). That car, as many will attest, would then be a VERY VERY nice CSL -- nicer than most coupes found here or elsewhere (although not a true full restoration).

But to use that car as benchmark for any pricing is simply wrong. It was a car with a significant question mark which all potential buyers were told about and buying it involved a known risk.

PS - Had I not disclosed the question mark, I could have probably sold it for 15 or 20k more -- especially to an overseas buyer. But that's not how I roll (yes, pun intended).

 

[eastsideM3]

Also, the Golf yellow CSL that sold last year (from my inside information) was full of rust. I know who purchased the car and it will easily be a $100k restoration.

Although your post does not say that I did not disclose the condition of my golf CSL, I want to make sure there is no misunderstanding.

"Full of rust" is a significant overstatement -- either from that unknown inside source or a misunderstand of what that source said. The car did have a very questionable prior rust repair and that is why I sold it at a price that I considered otherwise low. Unlike the person who sold it to me, I disclosed everything I knew about the condition of the car to all that inquired.

That said, the restoration may well be $100k, but not because of the rust or overall condition, but because the guy who bought wants to take it down to bare metal with literally every nut and bolt removed and replaced: a true complete restoration (the werk shop is doing the job). The rust, worstcase senario, was $30k which would include a complete repaint (according to CoupeKing). That car, as many will attest, would then be a VERY VERY nice CSL -- nicer than most coupes found here or elsewhere (although not a true full restoration).

But to use that car as benchmark for any pricing is simply wrong. It was a car with a significant question mark which all potential buyers were told about and buying it involved a known risk.

PS - Had I not disclosed the question mark, I could have probably sold it for 15 or 20k more -- especially to an overseas buyer. But that's not how I roll (yes, pun intended).

What was the question mark? The amount of rust that was actually there?

 

[eastsideM3]

Also, the Golf yellow CSL that sold last year (from my inside information) was full of rust. I know who purchased the car and it will easily be a $100k restoration.

Although your post does not say that I did not disclose the condition of my golf CSL, I want to make sure there is no misunderstanding.

"Full of rust" is a significant overstatement -- either from that unknown inside source or a misunderstand of what that source said. The car did have a very questionable prior rust repair and that is why I sold it at a price that I considered otherwise low. Unlike the person who sold it to me, I disclosed everything I knew about the condition of the car to all that inquired.

That said, the restoration may well be $100k, but not because of the rust or overall condition, but because the guy who bought wants to take it down to bare metal with literally every nut and bolt removed and replaced: a true complete restoration (the werk shop is doing the job). The rust, worstcase senario, was $30k which would include a complete repaint (according to CoupeKing). That car, as many will attest, would then be a VERY VERY nice CSL -- nicer than most coupes found here or elsewhere (although not a true full restoration).

But to use that car as benchmark for any pricing is simply wrong. It was a car with a significant question mark which all potential buyers were told about and buying it involved a known risk.

PS - Had I not disclosed the question mark, I could have probably sold it for 15 or 20k more -- especially to an overseas buyer. But that's not how I roll (yes, pun intended).

What was the question mark? The amount of rust that was actually there?

 

[schnell540]

What was the question mark? The amount of rust that was actually there?

Fiberglass was put in the upper fender (seen from looking up in the wheelwell). The fiberglass might have been hiding rust -- or just a really bad repair. There was also a small amount of surface rust around the fuse block; it could be that rust that resulted in the bad repair was causing that surface rust. Beacuse of the fiberglass and surface rust, some work was clearly necessary. The question was how much...

 

[schnell540]

What was the question mark? The amount of rust that was actually there?

Fiberglass was put in the upper fender (seen from looking up in the wheelwell). The fiberglass might have been hiding rust -- or just a really bad repair. There was also a small amount of surface rust around the fuse block; it could be that rust that resulted in the bad repair was causing that surface rust. Beacuse of the fiberglass and surface rust, some work was clearly necessary. The question was how much...