FS: 1973 3.0cs/Alpina Tribute

[RonP]

Here are a couple of E9s that I know have sold in the last 90 days:

1972 3.0 CSL series 1, has some rust, but overall a pretty nice car-sold for $123,000

1973 3.0CS-restored, sold for $70,000

If you were able to buy Paul Cain's car (it's not for sale), it would cost you way more than the price of my car. I know Paul very well, I have driven his car, helped him win a concours event, etc. It is a fine example of a resto-modded coupe in a similar fashion as to what BMW Motorsprt would have done, had they today's technology.

The build of the car I have for sale was done in a similar fashion to Paul's car, only it was modeled after what Alpina would have done. Let me make it clear, no one that has posted on this thread has seen nor driven this car and I find it hard to believe that from a few incredibly crappy pictures that I took that judgement could be passed so harshly. I have sold over 3,000 BMWs since 1986 and I am amazed at the harsh lashing out at a car for sale....ever!!!

No, I have not posted here as often as some of you, but if you go back and look at my posts you will not see any of them slamming something that a member of this community has for sale, and you won't in the future either. It is extremely distasteful and I am amazed at what has happened here.

Here is a short list of some cars that I have sold this year, and what they have sold for:

1977 530i 62k miles-$23,000 (my personal car)
1988 M5-54k miles-$31,500 (a frend's car)
1985 M535i-160k miles-$13,500 (my personal car)
1970 2800CS-156k miles-$25,000 (a friend's car)
1985 M5-90k miles $43,000 (my personal car)
1982 Alpina B9 tribute car $15,000 (my personal car)

I had asked the opinion of several members of this forum on what to price some of these cars at, and I was told on each car that "there was no way you can get that kind of money for an e12, etc."

If you look at the build sheet on this car and price out the components, you will see that it is extremely expensive to produce a car like this. I also have the car priced at $105,000 or best offer. If you don't the price or some of the options, I will change them out for you.

I will assume that all or most respondents on this trhead own an e9 coupe. Why wouldn't you applaud a sale or potenetial sale of another e9, especially at a "high dollar amount"??? It will only bring up the price of the car you now own, drive, and covet. Let's face it, the price of these cars are going up, as well as the e10s. Don Defletson has 11 tii's under construction and they all are at or above the $90,000 range.

My $.02 FWIW

 

[bela22]

"I will assume that all or most respondents on this trhead own an e9 coupe. Why wouldn't you applaud a sale or potenetial sale of another e9, especially at a "high dollar amount"??? It will only bring up the price of the car you now own, drive, and covet. Let's face it, the price of these cars are going up, as well as the e10s. Don Defletson has 11 tii's under construction and they all are at or above the $90,000 range."


"Here are a couple of E9s that I know have sold in the last 90 days:

1972 3.0 CSL series 1, has some rust, but overall a pretty nice car-sold for $123,000

1973 3.0CS-restored, sold for $70,000 "

Ron,

-OK .So should I think that if I'm selling my freshly restored CSi I'll get $70K for it? Or do you think that only modified cars can bring this amount ?I don't thinks so.These are the cars you invest money in for a resto,and you'll never see it back.

http://www.e9coupe.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4296

If you are a BMW dealer you must have an oppinion on this.thanks

 

[acat2002]

If you look at the build sheet on this car and price out the components, you will see that it is extremely expensive to produce a car like this. I also have the car priced at $105,000 or best offer. If you don't the price or some of the options, I will change them out for you.

........ Let's face it, the price of these cars are going up, as well as the e10s. Don Defletson has 11 tii's under construction and they all are at or above the $90,000 range.

My $.02 FWIW

I try to stay way from these highly charged "valuation" threads, but I think some of the push-back you are hearing reflects the overall consumer sentiment. The target audience for this car would have (or had) some respectable net worth. Unless you're living in Ted Kazinski's old cabin in the woods and have no access to any media, you certaintly would have noticed that economic conditions are absolutely abissmal. Let's face it, it's a bad time to sell anything at the moment, especially discretionary toys. Big discounts are expected.
.......and there are a few haters lurking on the board.

Second, the car does NOT have long term appreciation potential as a garden-variety E9. In order to justify a six figure price, the car has to have some upside. Rarity, Provenance etc.

Most importantly to quote Upset99, cost does not equal value. You see this phenomenom in the residential real estate market all the time. Somebody spends $1MM to built a very specific home and it is very poorly received by the market when it is time to sell and eventually sells for cents on the dollar. I don't think anyone here would argue that it would cost some serious $$$ to build any CS, but I think most people here realize that you don't see a return for that cost (aside from enjoyment).

RonP-don't take my comments as harsh, I'm not slamming the car - I'd love to own it (sans the seats and contemporary Alpina wheels of course). In fact, I'd love to hear about what type of modifications you had to make in order to fit the late-model automatic transmission in the tunnel. I think hidden modern technology well-disguised in a vintage package is very cool. If times were different, I'd probably be interested in buying myself.

Whenever somebody tries to sell any E9 on this board, we should all wish him/her the best of luck. THe only exception is when somebody is trying to misrepresent (like SportyMerc a few months ago). I hope this car finds a new home and commands a decent price. A rising tide raises all ships.

Best of luck RonP!

 

[blumax]

The Alpina "special"

I have seen this car and can vouch for its fine qualities--no--I'm not fond either of the seats with which it has been fitted--but what a small item to get their shorts so bunched up about as some have over that relatively minor item in relationship to the rest. I too am well acquanted with Paul Cains Coupe--I was its first passenger--other than his wife--to go for a ride in it just after its six year evolution around ten years ago. I asked him at the time if he would sell it for $60--the answer was a resounding--NO WAY JOSE!!

It seems there are actually few members that check in on this message board that are truly aware of prices that fine examples will fetch in a market such as there exists for fine mechanical art that can actually be driven. Often they have poo-pooed that there is often more $ than sense or similar comments.

I have handled a number of nice Coupes personally and am very aware of the local pricing that solid "rust free" or minimal rust examples with sound mechanicals and quality cosmetics will attract. We do have such examples here in SoCal. Starting over 10 years ago I placed several Coupes in the high twenties and then low to mid thirties and more recently beyond--they were very nice cars--one I had brought from a special source just resold for $52K--and in my opinion--a bargain for that one with 33K original miles in Concours condition.

Ron--lets face it--many who visit this board are simply not aware of the quality or value of the cars we have handled and may not be open to understanding.

Why--oddly--IMHO--and I don't get why--this message board has been consistently a place to get a generous doses of feedback--often negative--from certain vocal members especially when it comes to discussion ofpricing--but not the best place to find a potential buyer for a really high end E-9.

 

[chicane]

Here are a couple of E9s that I know have sold in the last 90 days:

1972 3.0 CSL series 1, has some rust, but overall a pretty nice car-sold for $123,000

1973 3.0CS-restored, sold for $70,000

If you were able to buy Paul Cain's car (it's not for sale), it would cost you way more than the price of my car. I know Paul very well, I have driven his car, helped him win a concours event, etc. It is a fine example of a resto-modded coupe in a similar fashion as to what BMW Motorsprt would have done, had they today's technology.

The build of the car I have for sale was done in a similar fashion to Paul's car, only it was modeled after what Alpina would have done. Let me make it clear, no one that has posted on this thread has seen nor driven this car and I find it hard to believe that from a few incredibly crappy pictures that I took that judgement could be passed so harshly. I have sold over 3,000 BMWs since 1986 and I am amazed at the harsh lashing out at a car for sale....ever!!!

No, I have not posted here as often as some of you, but if you go back and look at my posts you will not see any of them slamming something that a member of this community has for sale, and you won't in the future either. It is extremely distasteful and I am amazed at what has happened here.

Here is a short list of some cars that I have sold this year, and what they have sold for:

1977 530i 62k miles-$23,000 (my personal car)
1988 M5-54k miles-$31,500 (a frend's car)
1985 M535i-160k miles-$13,500 (my personal car)
1970 2800CS-156k miles-$25,000 (a friend's car)
1985 M5-90k miles $43,000 (my personal car)
1982 Alpina B9 tribute car $15,000 (my personal car)

I had asked the opinion of several members of this forum on what to price some of these cars at, and I was told on each car that "there was no way you can get that kind of money for an e12, etc."

If you look at the build sheet on this car and price out the components, you will see that it is extremely expensive to produce a car like this. I also have the car priced at $105,000 or best offer. If you don't the price or some of the options, I will change them out for you.

I will assume that all or most respondents on this trhead own an e9 coupe. Why wouldn't you applaud a sale or potenetial sale of another e9, especially at a "high dollar amount"??? It will only bring up the price of the car you now own, drive, and covet. Let's face it, the price of these cars are going up, as well as the e10s. Don Defletson has 11 tii's under construction and they all are at or above the $90,000 range.

My $.02 FWIW

I do not know about any of these other cars that you have sold but as to this car it is in no way comparable to what Paul Cain has done IMHO. Six figures for this car is way off the mark, I don't care how much money the guy is said to have spent on it. And as I said before that interior is garish. IMHO you would be better off putting some nice OEM black seats in front and taking a rattle can to the rest of the interior and color it black (although I think saddle would look great with this color car). That said six figures is way too much for a car like this when I have seen nice CSL's go for $55K-$60K.

 

[E9erCS]

In my experience, a "build" or restoration of this quality takes 1100-1400 hours of labor, plus parts, plus the cost of the car. With labor typically $75-90 per hour in a competent restoration shop, the $$$ add up quickly. At the end of the process, one winds up with a "new" 35 year old car, often with better paint, panel fit, and other details than the original.

To compare the results, esthetic and "authenticity" decisions aside, to an unrestored but "clean" and "rust-free" alternative is to compare apples with oranges.

 

[chicane]

In my experience, a "build" or restoration of this quality takes 1100-1400 hours of labor, plus parts, plus the cost of the car. With labor typically $75-90 per hour in a competent restoration shop, the $$$ add up quickly. At the end of the process, one winds up with a "new" 35 year old car, often with better paint, panel fit, and other details than the original.

To compare the results, esthetic and "authenticity" decisions aside, to an unrestored but "clean" and "rust-free" alternative is to compare apples with oranges.

You are right, it is apples to oranges. The unrestored but "clean" and "rust-free" authentic car will hold it's value and appreciate much faster than ANY resto mod will. The authentic car will have an intrinsic value to the collector that will almost never go away.

 

[Upset99]

Here is a short list of some cars that I have sold this year, and what they have sold for:

1977 530i 62k miles-$23,000 (my personal car)
1988 M5-54k miles-$31,500 (a frend's car)
1985 M535i-160k miles-$13,500 (my personal car)
1970 2800CS-156k miles-$25,000 (a friend's car)
1985 M5-90k miles $43,000 (my personal car)
1982 Alpina B9 tribute car $15,000 (my personal car)

I think I need to move in your circles or can I be your friend? It appears you know the "right" people or how to market to them, obviously some people will pay big dollars for these cars.

I think everyone agrees finding the right market is the key to anything.

 

[de coupe]

Alpina

Great looking car, I could not have said it better than Blumax himself. Please remember all, that we are all lovers of these cars And what ever stage your car/cars are in please be mind ful of the commitment it takes to build one of these cars.

Lets just be thankful for the "board, one less car rusted out, the money that these cars are fetching, some one taking the time effort and money to restore a coupe"


I dont think I do need to remind you of how many coupe are on the road


The heavy chevy meeting place is at the local .99 cent store were they can get water pumps and top end kits. Two for one....

 

[dang]

You are right, it is apples to oranges. The unrestored but "clean" and "rust-free" authentic car will hold it's value and appreciate much faster than ANY resto mod will. The authentic car will have an intrinsic value to the collector that will almost never go away.

Yes and no. I agree that unrestored authentic classics have that collector market that will pay top dollar, but I also think there's a market for the resto-mod that brings crazy money. Different cars, different markets. The Barrett-Jackson thing is a good example of what some people will pay for non-original classics. It ALWAYS gets back to "its worth what people will pay for it". I like apples and oranges!

Dan

 

[chicane]

You are right, it is apples to oranges. The unrestored but "clean" and "rust-free" authentic car will hold it's value and appreciate much faster than ANY resto mod will. The authentic car will have an intrinsic value to the collector that will almost never go away.

Yes and no. I agree that unrestored authentic classics have that collector market that will pay top dollar, but I also think there's a market for the resto-mod that brings crazy money. Different cars, different markets. The Barrett-Jackson thing is a good example of what some people will pay for non-original classics. It ALWAYS gets back to "its worth what people will pay for it". I like apples and oranges!

Dan

I have seen very few resto-mods that even make their money back. Almost all , that do, are of the American muscle variety such as the "Eleanor" Shelby GT Mustang tribute. I have never seen a resto-mods at Barrett-Jackson of the European vein, quite possible because there isn't a market for that kind of car.

 

[TilotLicense]

I hope the car sells at its asking price,I have participated in a Pebble Beach resto on an Auto Union and the funds invested in the car were astronomical.My house cost less.
The car is definately not to everyones taste,but certainly many times better than the current top of the line Coupe offered by BMW.Not sure there will ever be a market 30 years down the line for the current M6,but 100% for sure they are not making anymore 1970 CS coupes...that being said if I could afford it I would but it in a hearbeat!!!

 

[chicane]

I hope the car sells at its asking price,I have participated in a Pebble Beach resto on an Auto Union and the funds invested in the car were astronomical.My house cost less.
The car is definately not to everyones taste,but certainly many times better than the current top of the line Coupe offered by BMW.Not sure there will ever be a market 30 years down the line for the current M6,but 100% for sure they are not making anymore 1970 CS coupes...that being said if I could afford it I would but it in a hearbeat!!!

You must be joking. I would buy a new M6 any day over a 6 figure resto mod that has not the handling, speed or creature comforts of the new M6. And what does a rare Auto Union car have in comparison to this ride?

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Vehicles/2009/M/M6Coupe/default.aspx

 

[jamesr]

I would buy a new M6 any day over a 6 figure resto mod that has not the handling, speed or creature comforts of the new M6.

Would you spend six figures on an unrestored classic that has not the handling, speed or creature comforts of the new M6?

 

[chicane]

I would buy a new M6 any day over a 6 figure resto mod that has not the handling, speed or creature comforts of the new M6.

Would you spend six figures on an unrestored classic that has not the handling, speed or creature comforts of the new M6?

Depends on how rare it was. If it was a CSL Bat, I think so because that car has intrinsic value and will appreciate over time. It also depends on the condition. It it was all original and had moderate wear yes, if a rust bucket then no. This resto mod has no intrinsic value in the marketplace other than that one rare person who deems it so.

 

[jamesr]

How much do you think a 2008 M6 coupe will be worth compared to it's new purchase price in say, 5-6 years?

 

[acat2002]

How much do you think a 2008 M6 coupe will be worth compared to it's new purchase price in say, 5-6 years?

Talk about apples and oranges! this is way off topic, but I'll stab at this anyway, because it does relate to our coupe ownership.....

Concerning the 2008 M6 - I'll simply say that even in a vacuum (with no inflation/deflation) and assuming the car is stored and not driven, a 2008 M6 would still be depreciating on a much, much longer time table. There are loads stats indicating depreciation curves peaking 15 years from purchase on high-end cars like the M6.

How this relates to our coupe ownership is this...E9s were made in fewer numbers and given attrition (to rust, etc.) significantly fewer numbers exist. Furthermore, as it relates to the "resto-mod" coupe in this thread, the value can't be compared to new cars, or other correct vintage cars for that matter. Instead, value will ultimately determined when somebody steps up and is willing to pay a premium. Personally, I'd love to drive this car everyday (with a few edits) if I could afford to throw close to six figures at a toy that's value is IMHO most definately at its peak. In other words whatever this car ultimately sells for will be the highest peak in its value curve. It was obviously built to be driven and enjoyed and not as a concours car or investment vehicle.

As most of us already know, E9 ownership is all about hemmorhaging money, not realizing any return. So, to that end, let the new owner of this coupe continue this trend and hopefully enjoy the hell out of this cool car.

 

[E9erCS]

Well said!

 

[jamesr]

Talk about apples and oranges! this is way off topic.

Cheers for the reply, but IMHO this thread went off topic the minute people started commenting on it. It is a sales thread after all.

It seemed a bit late to save 4 pages in, so i thought i'd question the previous poster, as i was interested in his comments.

You've got me thinking though and i'm not sure how accurate your previous comment might be, as i remembered seeing this quote on several websites concerning the M6's production.

"Germany manufacturing facility will turn out limited numbers of the M6",

http://www.autobytel.com/content/sh.../article_page_order_int/2/article_id_int/1475

And if i remember correctly (which i often don't) manufacturing figures for e9's were actually quite high (into the 10's of thousands), so the M6 may be quite rare after all.

Cheers.

 

[acat2002]

jamessr- Agreed!

nobody can beat the value discussion to death ad nauseum like this board.

You know what has often been said about opinions and a certain oriface!