I don't think it will happen if people can make a free choice as to what they buy. Seems a lot of vested interests want people to behave a certain way. In Ontario we have wasted HUGE sums on unproductive alternative energy. We are now paying the price just like Spain has with a declining manufacturing sector. Energy costs are extremely high in Ontario. Quebec has electricity galore with their Hydro installations.
Tesla maybe smoke and mirrors
- Thread starter Nicad
- Start date
While we coupers tend to stay away from politics, I can't help but reply to this. Every year we spend hundreds of billions of tax dollars on the military, whose mission is to protect our national interest. One of those interests is oil. Foreign oil. Without oil, we would never had troops stationed in Saudi Arabia, no USS Cole bombing, and Bin Laden's family would be a bunch of poor shepherds. If oil were a worthless commodity, then Bin Laden would never have existed. No Sept 11 attack, no Afghan war, etc.
While I also somewhat disagree with the subsidy on electric cars, and I don't need it, I think alternatives to petroleum based fuel are a matter of national security. My car will run on power generated from domestic natural gas. I don't care if a Tesla is "green", I just like the car, the design, the concept, and I like the fact that millions of similar cars on the road will make thugs and enemies like Hugo Chavez and the Iranians weaker.
I do agree with the loans Tesla has received from the government. In 2008, no one would loan them money.
I love my gasoline cars, but I envision a time when they are the "toys" and the DD is fueled by domestic energy.
Jay, I also agree that while people expect battery costs to plummet like the cost of RAM/chips/etc, they probably won;t. They are made from rare, scarce metals.
Respectfully,
Scott
rb1971
Well-Known Member
I don't own an EV and probably won't (since I walk to work), but the fairest result would probably be something like charging a tax based on gross vehicle weight and miles travelled per year for every vehicle, not just EVs, and removing the road tax portion of the fuel tax entirely. I'm not holding my breath, not least because of the trucking lobby.
dealhunter0
Well-Known Member
Sorry this is getting so political, but if anything gasoline taxes should be higher because of the hidden costs of fossil fuels (pollution, global warming, national security). I love my gas-burning cars as much as the next guy, but I think we can all agree that the world's supply of petrol is finite and our great grandchildren with thank us for leaving a little bit in the ground for them to enjoy.
Nicad, Lithium is cheap and abundant. ~$200 of lithium for a $10k battery. Lithium ion battery costs have declined by 50% in the last 4 years. Yes, we could hit a road block, but the trend is pretty impressive.
Last edited:
Dealhunter, excuse the Wiki source but...
Another 2011 study by researchers from the University of Michigan and Ford Motor Company found that there are sufficient lithium resources to support global demand until 2100, including the lithium required for the potential widespread use of hybrid electric, plug-in hybrid electric and battery electric vehicles. The study estimated global lithium reserves at 39 million tons, and total demand for lithium during the 90-year period analyzed at 12–20 million tons, depending on the scenarios regarding economic growth and recycling rates.
I think we have more oil than that once we look up North.
Another 2011 study by researchers from the University of Michigan and Ford Motor Company found that there are sufficient lithium resources to support global demand until 2100, including the lithium required for the potential widespread use of hybrid electric, plug-in hybrid electric and battery electric vehicles. The study estimated global lithium reserves at 39 million tons, and total demand for lithium during the 90-year period analyzed at 12–20 million tons, depending on the scenarios regarding economic growth and recycling rates.
I think we have more oil than that once we look up North.
jmackro
Well-Known Member
Sure, maybe they should be higher - the Europeans certainly pay more in fuel tax than we North Americans. My point wasn't the magnitude of the tax - it was the unfairness of charging it on gasoline but not on electricity used for transportation. dealhunter0's arguement is highly applicable to electric cars - when power plants rely on coal, nuclear, and damming rivers, then pollution, warming, and security sure seem like issues to me.
Last edited:
Point well taken. If my zoning will allow, I may set up a solar array to offset my cars electricity consumption. The trouble is that we have hurricanes here, so that makes me reluctant. And the stick on solar panels won't fit my type of metal roof. So far I have seen two tesla model s cars in the last 24 hours. All three owners love them and zero repairs so far. The highest mileage car is 3700 miles. So they may in fact have their act together, unlike Fisker. Can't wait to get ours and drive the heck out of it.
dealhunter0
Well-Known Member
Fair enough. Maybe the way to solve this is to have one tax on mileage and another on fuel, be it gas or electricity. There have been some proposals lately to create a tax on fossil fuel-derived electricity in general to encourage more renewables. not sure what's come of it – seems like a good idea.
The great thing about batteries is that nothing's actually used up. If lithium starts to become scarce in 50 or 60 years we'll just step up our effort to recover it from old batteries. Recycling isn't cost effective at the moment because of how cheap it is.
Looking forward to your observations. I think it is a great car from looks to performance. Quite impressed that it was a non automotive insider who brought this to market.
Went and checked out the Tesla S today at the Yorkdale Mall in Toronto. I think setting up in a mall is brilliant. You should have seen the tire kickers wandering in knowing NOTHING about this car, but all quite intrigued by the looks. The sales presentation on a big touch screen explaining all the running costs was also extremely well done. From what I can see this car is a major winner. My only observations about what it is like is that things like door hinges feel a lot cheaper than a BMW's. The interior door panels also feel like they are not fully developed. The seats are comfy though. The touch screen is as intuitive as using an iPad. . I know how I would spec mine. It would be the 60KW battery (300 pounds lighter) with the height adjustable suspension. I'd ditch the All Seasons and go summer/winter. The fact that the weight sits below the center point of the wheels makes me think it will be a huge blast to drive and with winter tires and height adjustment, a monster in the snow. In Toronto, one could easily get from downtown to cottage country on any Tesla charge and just plug into a 220V receptacle to keep it ready to go.
I think this car is a deal when one considers what a 335i costs with the crazy option packages BMW makes you buy just to get Navi. We also get an $8000 Provincial rebate for going "Green" Very generous of the taxpayers slaving away at the retail level to help buy me a Tesla.
I think this car is a deal when one considers what a 335i costs with the crazy option packages BMW makes you buy just to get Navi. We also get an $8000 Provincial rebate for going "Green" Very generous of the taxpayers slaving away at the retail level to help buy me a Tesla.
Last edited:
so did you come home with one? or ... no
No I did not, but hopefully will schedule a test drive for next week. I do not need a car this nice to daily. If you could see how much Sand is in my Wagon due to my crazy Sheepdog breaking through the ice and going swimming at the beach today you would shake your head. My wife might like one to replace her MDX though.
i have found buying the wife something nice lets you spend more on your coupe
I have found paying cash like HB Chris for his floor resto does too! I am not sure my wife would prefer it. She is always running her SUV down to that last few miles of gas.
Honolulu
Well-Known Member
heh heh. taxes. peak oil. subsidies.
I'm waiting for Mr. Fusion. We already have solar hot water (14 years, paid off in about two) and solar electricity (three years, payback under five). A few more panels on the roof and an electric bike, or convert my K100RS, and we good to go.
I'm waiting for Mr. Fusion. We already have solar hot water (14 years, paid off in about two) and solar electricity (three years, payback under five). A few more panels on the roof and an electric bike, or convert my K100RS, and we good to go.
Well I am now an experienced Tesla driver. Had a test drive today in a Model S Performance Pack (the Top Dog). Very impressed with how it works. The drive started off in the underground parking lot of the mall where the showroom is . It is situated beside an Apple store across from a giant Microsoft store . Never knew Microsoft was going Apple too. Anyway, I think they could not have a better place to show the car.
A very cheery and ( I must say Pretty) Sales Rep accompanied me on the drive. She was a displaced Californian wearing Tesla sports clothes.
The electronic interface on the Tesla really reinvents car operation. It is basically a Giant iPad that does everything. She asked what my favourite music was and goes on the internet to load it in. I think I would get seriously distracted with this much computer power at my fingertips. You want the sunroof open, you just swipe your finger across the screen to open it whatever proportion you want to. We set the driving parameters while parked, but they can be done on the fly. We chose regenerative braking on and Creep on. Creep makes it pull out slowly just like when driving a car with an automatic. We left the steering in normal mode .
Driving off, the car is dead silent. No noise at all. Out on the street with Creep mode on, it drives exactly like a luxury car in slow traffic. Out on the road she encouraged me to let er rip. The torque is exactly like a Jet plane. Pure linear acceleration. Instant, smooth and extremely powerful. It is very useable power. I have driven a V-8 M3 and it is sluggish till in the higher rev ranges. This is just point and shoot. You would get so used to toasting all cars around you in traffic if you were in an aggressive driving mood. The handling seemed to be very good. We were on Winter tires, but on ramps could be taken very quickly.
Overall you get used to this car very quickly.
I did not like backing the car up because you can't see anything. I don't like those rear view cameras as a substitute. As for the build quality, it seems about like a GM (Not it's strongest suit) I think trim pieces for example have not received the durability testing that a BMW would have. (Ok , an older BMW)
WHen asked about the big question....how much does a battery cost? I did not get an answer. The answer I got was that it is warrantied for 8 years and projected to last about 12. It is not a part Tesla will just sell you. For $10,000 you can prepurchase a battery for 12 years down the road (OR something like that) Was this transferable?? I have heard that the smaller battery on the Tesla roadster cost upwards of $40,000 dollars to replace if you toast it and warranty won't cover it. The whole value equation of this car rests on what the battery truly costs, and so far no one has told me. WOuld you buy a six year old one that needed a $50K battery? I was also told that it will be like flat screen TVs.....cheap a few years from now. That is salesman talk and when it comes from a Pretty and Cheerful California car enthusiast, easy to let pass.
I am very impressed with the car. I could live with this, more so if it was put into a simple , practical package like my E46 Wagon. Anyone have any observations on the newest thing in cars?
A couple of things I am wondering?
What happens if it catches fire? Is it a toxic waste site after?
How toxic is Lithium mining and production and is it possible on a huge scale?
A very cheery and ( I must say Pretty) Sales Rep accompanied me on the drive. She was a displaced Californian wearing Tesla sports clothes.
The electronic interface on the Tesla really reinvents car operation. It is basically a Giant iPad that does everything. She asked what my favourite music was and goes on the internet to load it in. I think I would get seriously distracted with this much computer power at my fingertips. You want the sunroof open, you just swipe your finger across the screen to open it whatever proportion you want to. We set the driving parameters while parked, but they can be done on the fly. We chose regenerative braking on and Creep on. Creep makes it pull out slowly just like when driving a car with an automatic. We left the steering in normal mode .
Driving off, the car is dead silent. No noise at all. Out on the street with Creep mode on, it drives exactly like a luxury car in slow traffic. Out on the road she encouraged me to let er rip. The torque is exactly like a Jet plane. Pure linear acceleration. Instant, smooth and extremely powerful. It is very useable power. I have driven a V-8 M3 and it is sluggish till in the higher rev ranges. This is just point and shoot. You would get so used to toasting all cars around you in traffic if you were in an aggressive driving mood. The handling seemed to be very good. We were on Winter tires, but on ramps could be taken very quickly.
Overall you get used to this car very quickly.
I did not like backing the car up because you can't see anything. I don't like those rear view cameras as a substitute. As for the build quality, it seems about like a GM (Not it's strongest suit) I think trim pieces for example have not received the durability testing that a BMW would have. (Ok , an older BMW)
WHen asked about the big question....how much does a battery cost? I did not get an answer. The answer I got was that it is warrantied for 8 years and projected to last about 12. It is not a part Tesla will just sell you. For $10,000 you can prepurchase a battery for 12 years down the road (OR something like that) Was this transferable?? I have heard that the smaller battery on the Tesla roadster cost upwards of $40,000 dollars to replace if you toast it and warranty won't cover it. The whole value equation of this car rests on what the battery truly costs, and so far no one has told me. WOuld you buy a six year old one that needed a $50K battery? I was also told that it will be like flat screen TVs.....cheap a few years from now. That is salesman talk and when it comes from a Pretty and Cheerful California car enthusiast, easy to let pass.
I am very impressed with the car. I could live with this, more so if it was put into a simple , practical package like my E46 Wagon. Anyone have any observations on the newest thing in cars?
A couple of things I am wondering?
What happens if it catches fire? Is it a toxic waste site after?
How toxic is Lithium mining and production and is it possible on a huge scale?
Last edited:
rb1971
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the write-up, very close to my opinions after one drive (not a test drive, but a drive in the Model S Performance owned by my colleague down the hall). I wanted to note that he bought the $10k purchase option, which he tells me is transferrable to the next owner. He got the same spiel that Tesla expects the battery to actually cost less than $10k by the time it's relevant, but who knows whether that will actually be true. (His salesperson was a salesman, which may reduce the credulity factor somewhat.)
dealhunter0
Well-Known Member
Ugh...the newer BMWs have gotten so bad. The engineering is fantastic, the handling is fantastic but the interior is done in 4–5 short years. A bunch of the plastic trim panels are already cracking and peeling on my brother in law's 2009 335i. Our e46 was a bit better, but still had issues. After 8 years the interior plastics had turned to black goop and the rubber window seals were all disintegrating. Almost wonder if they're trying to make disposable cars...