The Raven e9 project

[Belgiumbarry]

no sorry.Thanks.Took me 20 years... to enjoy 5. For sale....at a ridiculous price. Build cost sure x3. Times have changed......

Grundel 50 One Off | Huysman Yacht

www.huysmanyacht.com

 

[HonaloochieBoogie]

@autokunst , I’ll take the under on your “20 years “ comment. This is my favorite thread on the site. It’s a wonderful combination of e9 information, restoration documentation and your unbridled love and enthusiasm for your car. Please keep posting!

 

[autokunst]

@autokunst , I’ll take the under on your “20 years “ comment. This is my favorite thread on the site. It’s a wonderful combination of e9 information, restoration documentation and your unbridled love and enthusiasm for your car. Please keep posting!

Thanks Chris! I'll definitely keep posting my progress. Evidently for years to come - ha ha!

 

[CSteve]

Stephen, I would judge from your photo you will have many, many years driving your coupe. Will it ever be finished? Nope.

 

[autokunst]

Continuing with the right rear sill to wheel well connection. With a few pieces welded together, it is quickly becoming as stiff as it is rust free. I'd like to share a theory regarding the rear wheel well components. I've been discussing this with @eriknetherlands and also learning from his extensive research, some of which is shared below. I am not sure if my theory is accurate, but I believe it to be so.

The area in question is the front of the rear wheel well. Specifically, the inner wheel well assembly. These parts are original on my car, and you can see from the side I haven't taken apart yet (save for a peep hole I carved), are pretty intact. The area I call the "skirt" is a separate piece here.

You can see this separate piece assembly on the BMW museum car, too. Photo courtesy of @eriknetherlands

You'll see on the Walloth Nesch replacement inner wheel part, the sheet metal stops above the skirt - this matches my car exactly.

However, Erik had found another photo that shows the skirt as a continuation of the wheel well. I think this is a better detail, however it is not original to my car nor the museum car.

My theory is that perhaps this inner wheel well part changed for MY 1974. I believe a gusset was added at the rear of this part (visible in the trunk) in 1974. Since the tooling changed for this part at that time, my theory is that maybe they changed the "skirt" detail as well. Besides this photo from Erik, I have not seen this detail elsewhere. I'd be curious to learn if any later model cars had the welded in skirt or the continuous skirt.

I've chosen to replicate the newer / non-original (to my car) detail as I believe it is better for corrosion resistance. The original lap joint can trap water within the sill assembly - a ticking time bomb.

 

[autokunst]

I'm writing with a quick update. No photos tonight. I have shifted gears and am beginning to replace the floor on the right hand side of the car. I want to do this before I put the intermediate sill piece on so I have good access to where the floor flange welds to the inner sill.

I need to re-visit some research as I know some others have had to work with the WN floor panels (@eriknetherlands comes to mind). My preliminary measurements tonight tell me that some details are measuring similar to the original panels, other details are not. Overall, so far I am a little underwhelmed with the WN floor panels, but I will make them work.

I think it will be a nice milestone to have that right side back together.

 

[adawil2002]

Any new metal needs some massaging to fit. Hope it all goes as smoothly as possible.

 

[autokunst]

Any new metal needs some massaging to fit. Hope it all goes as smoothly as possible.

Ah yes, some massaging is expected. But when features in the panel are not as crisp as the original, or a different shape or size, or missing altogether - that's when it gets annoying. So far these panels are relatively close. They will be fine for the floor of the car. No holes will be a great start.

 

[mulberryworks]

Ah yes, some massaging is expected. But when features in the panel are not as crisp as the original, or a different shape or size, or missing altogether - that's when it gets annoying. So far these panels are relatively close. They will be fine for the floor of the car. No holes will be a great start.

I decided early on that I could either buy the manufactured panels that I needed or spend the money on some tooling and make my own panels. I've got most of the tools I think I'll need but haven't taken the car apart yet so panel creation hasn't begun. Fortunately I won't need much steel. A bit of floor and some parts of the right sill are the main problem areas but there is some corrosion in the trunk.

 

[autokunst]

Updates and a QUESTION (below)

I've trimmed the outer edge of the right front floor patch piece, and folded the flange along the edge. I then started to lay out the ribs. I'll be stretching and then bead rolling/pressing the elements into the panel. WN left me pretty short on the front inner portion. I'll fit these sections and then see where I am at.

Here's the big question. Are the rear floor wells supposed to have this angled depression? Or should the well be relatively flat? Mine original floors are/were angled down, but they were also pretty corroded and had 45 years of people stepping on them, so I don't know. Thanks in advance.

 

[mulberryworks]

Updates and a QUESTION (below)

I've trimmed the outer edge of the right front floor patch piece, and folded the hem along the edge. I then started to lay out the ribs. I'll be stretching and then bead rolling/pressing the elements into the panel. WN left me pretty short on the front inner portion. I'll fit these sections and then see where I am at.
View attachment 135850
View attachment 135851

Here's the big question. Are the rear floor wells supposed to have this angled depression? Or should the well be relatively flat? Mine original floors are/were angled down, but they were also pretty corroded and had 45 years of people stepping on them, so I don't know. Thanks in advance.
View attachment 135849

I believe the floors had a bit of slope to let the paint drain through the holes in the center after being primed. That's why there are removable plugs that rust out in the floors. Hard to say if that much slope matches the factory floors though, I don't have any info on that measurement.

One note on the bead you plan to roll into the panel. Even if you stretch the panel quite a bit first, I'd expect the lines you've marked to shift over as the bead takes up more metal than the straight panel. You could wet some paper and put in into the beads on the panel that has them and let it dry. After you flatten it out, you'll have an idea of where the spacing should be but I'd roll the beads one at a time from your hem to have the best control.

 

[autokunst]

I believe the floors had a bit of slope to let the paint drain through the holes in the center after being primed. That's why there are removable plugs that rust out in the floors. Hard to say if that much slope matches the factory floors though, I don't have any info on that measurement.

One note on the bead you plan to roll into the panel. Even if you stretch the panel quite a bit first, I'd expect the lines you've marked to shift over as the bead takes up more metal than the straight panel. You could wet some paper and put in into the beads on the panel that has them and let it dry. After you flatten it out, you'll have an idea of where the spacing should be but I'd roll the beads one at a time from your hem to have the best control.

The reddish pink marks on the photo are just photoshop. The "real" panel layout was started after I snapped that photo. My plan is to do some test beads on another piece. I feel that if properly stretched, the alignment might be pretty static. But the test runs will provide some critical data. Then I'll do one bead at a time working from the outer flange side inward. That will allow me to make edits if necessary.

 

[Markos]

@autokunst,

I’ve heard that W&N rears and Pelly front pans are a good combination. I have no idea why W&N front pans are so narrow. I think it is pretty common to rust out under the gas pedal, close to the tunnel. Their pans overlook the entire problem area.

Did you give the pans from Tlocznia-black consideration? They have some warping that could be addressed, but overall seem like far less work. I like that you can add the standalone drain plug like the originals. If you are a nutcase, the one piece drain plug is a major tell that the pans were replaced.

Tłocznia Blach • shop online: FLOOR PANELS •

tlocznia-blach.pl

 

[eriknetherlands]

I think the belly is normal. I had them on both sides of my car. I also do remember that while working on the car in that area, everything kept 'walking' towards the hole due to vibration of grinding or sanding, and falling on the ground.
But that's just thoughts, and I always prefer values over thoughts:
I still have one of my original rear panels, I'll measure the 'depth' of the belly; if that value matches yours, then it would give indication that it is original.

The Tloczonia panels are having some details that the fronts from W&N do not have. However they are also easily identifiable as incorrect, as the 5 beads are not continued through the 'step' that the panel makes. they stop at the edge, and on the level below they start again. the originals have the beads following 'through' the step. Here: Tlocznia in blue with incorrect step, versus the W&N panels, with their accurate 'step' in the lower edge of the picture.

The above picture also shows that I made some trial pieces to study how the material pulled when rolling the beads. One consideration is to weld the front and rear pieces together with some temp welds, and run the beads from the rear panels straight into the front panel. I've chosen that method for my second floor half (left side). after running the beads, I opened the temp welds. I did this as i replaced the floor section by section, hoping that cutting only a quarter floor out at a time would keep the frame dimensions intact. (sill to tunnel distance)

I did quite some comparision on the rear and front panels in another post. Biggest feature that was 'off' on the W&N rear panel is the distance front to back of the lowest depression; it is about 10 mm too short when comparing to originals. As on the underside it needs to line up with the end of the frame rails, it means you have 2 choices:
1. to shift the panel forward, mating it correctly to the frame rails. However then the 2 M8 bolt holes for the rear suspension are also 10 mm too far forward: to be remedied by relocating them.
2. to align the panel on the 2 m8 bolt holes for the rear suspension, and to correct the fitment to the frame rails by filling the gap.

This is how it ends up when you don't consider the above :-(. I should have chosen to move these 2 M8 holes at the rear of the panel:

Also the rear pans do not have the spacing correct compared to original. below pic shows W7N panel, with the bead near the tunnel perfectly aligned near the tunnel; it is however ~5 mm off towards the sill. (which isn't an issue if you replace the front floor panels as well; in that case you need to create the beads anyway )

In the rear it has identical fitment issues, which can only be corrected by flattening the W&N panel, and shifting the bead slightly.

 

[tferrer]

I think the belly is normal. I had them on both sides of my car. I also do remember that while working on the car in that area, everything kept 'walking' towards the hole due to vibration of grinding or sanding, and falling on the ground.
But that's just thoughts, and I always prefer values over thoughts:
I still have one of my original rear panels, I'll measure the 'depth' of the belly; if that value matches yours, then it would give indication that it is original.

The Tloczonia panels are having some details that the fronts from W&N do not have. However they are also easily identifiable as incorrect, as the 5 beads are not continued through the 'step' that the panel makes. they stop at the edge, and on the level below they start again. the originals have the beads following 'through' the step. Here: Tlocznia in blue with incorrect step, versus the W&N panels, with their accurate 'step' in the lower edge of the picture.
View attachment 135858 View attachment 135859

The above picture also shows that I made some trial pieces to study how the material pulled when rolling the beads. One consideration is to weld the front and rear pieces together with some temp welds, and run the beads from the rear panels straight into the front panel. I've chosen that method for my second floor half (left side).

View attachment 135861
I did quite some comparision on the rear and front panels in another post. Biggest feature that was 'off' on the W&N rear panel is the distance front to back of the lowest depression; it is about 10 mm too short when comparing to originals. As on the underside it needs to line up with the end of the frame rails, it means you have 2 choices:
1. to shift the panel forward, mating it correctly to the frame rails. However then the 2 M8 bolt holes for the rear suspension are also 10 mm too far forward: to be remedied by relocating them.
2. to align the panel on the 2 m8 bolt holes for the rear suspension, and to correct the fitment to the frame rails by filling the gap.

This is how it ends up when you don't consider the above :-(. I should have chosen to move these 2 M8 holes at the rear of the panel:
View attachment 135863 View attachment 135864

Also the rear pans do not have the spacing correct compared to original. below pic shows W7N panel, with the bead near the tunnel perfectly aligned near the tunnel; it is however ~5 mm off towards the sill. (which isn't an issue if you replace the front floor panels as well; in that case you need to create the beads anyway ) View attachment 135860
In the rear it has identical fitment issues, which can only be corrected by flattening the W&N panel, and shifting the bead slightly.
View attachment 135862

Can we inform W&N of these incorrect details? They have the pans made, correct?

 

[mulberryworks]

Can we inform W&N of these incorrect details? They have the pans made, correct?

I'm sure they know, they have been selling these parts for years. I suspect the stamping dies were made incorrectly and it would be very expensive to modify them, or create new ones. They would have to have a firm idea of how many more parts they would sell and how much more they could charge for perfect pans before they invested the money in new tooling. And even though they will know how many they have sold in the past, it's a total guess as to how many they will sell in the future. Also, they may have a significant stock of pans already created, further reducing the potential of being able to offset the cost of new stamping dies.

 

[day66]

I have the original rear floor pans in my coupe so I'd say the belly is normal - here's mine. I probably should have measured the floor rather than the plug but it's coming in at a little under 2 cm.

 

[autokunst]

Did you give the pans from Tlocznia-black consideration?

I did consider these full pans momentarily. However, I bought the WN pans years ago (before the car was even delivered). Let's just say I knew I'd need them. So the money I have invested in the parts I have is something. An additional 700 Euro plus shipping doesn't sound like something I want to explore ($1k USD).

Pelly front pieces - I've heard of these but cannot find a source. Is there a website or something? The forum thread I found is from 15 years ago.

I did buy the floor pieces from alfaparts. I don't want to say they were junk, but let's just say they weren't a match for an e9. Returned for full refund.

@eriknetherlands Thank you for your detailed response. I have read and re-read your thread on the subject and it is super helpful. I agree that there are shortcomings with seemingly every potential option. the WN panels are not complete, they do not have all the details, and some features may not be in the exact right position. The TB panels have discontinuous ribs and some wrinkles that need to be worked out. Making panels from scratch is not impossible - but I do like to start with something that I can build from. While I enjoy this metal bending hobby, I am far from a coach builder. How many details would not be perfectly correct on my home fabricated parts? We'll likely ever know. One benefit of replacing more of the floor pans at once is that the rear patch from WN does not have to justify at both ends. I only need to get the rear beads to align. I will be beading the front ribs myself (assuming I use the WN front pieces). The rear seems pretty close on my car. Maybe only some minor fussing of one of the ribs.

Save for a discovery of "Pelly panels", I may continue with the WN panels and fabricate from scratch the remaining puzzle pieces. It just occurred to me that there is a Mike Pelly on the forum. Not sure if it is the same Mike. @Mike Pelly do you have front floor pan pieces available?

@tferrer I doubt WN would consider re-tooling for these. As someone mentioned, all of these parts need some tinkering to fit our cars. I suspect that will be their response.

@day66 Thank you for the measurement. That is about what the WN panels have, which puts my mind at ease. I was close to shrinking that belly out of the parts - boy would that have sucked to find out they were correct after I did the work.

 

[HB Chris]

I sent a text to Pelly re: his floor pans.

 

[Mike Pelly]

@autokunst @HB Chris
Thanks to Chris Macha for texting me, I'm not on this site daily. I have "pelly" pans, and I've read the forum discussions about how my front pans are preferred to W/N. I sold pans long before W/N, installing the first set on my coupe nearly 20 years ago (I still own that coupe). Over the years I've only had two complaints.... last month a buyer didn't like the amount of 'warp' (once they are welded into place, the warpage disappears). The second complaint was about a year ago when a customer reported my front pans didn't align with W/N rears. I wanted to disclose these issues because your the level of craftsmanship is top notch and I'm not sure my pans will solve your problem.