Thanks for the reply. It would be nice to mention you are the builder of this kit as opposed to a happy buyer though.
Upgrading to a Parallel Flow Condenser
- Thread starter thehackmechanic
- Start date
I think we make that abundantly clear. We have rebuild hundreds of stock heat and air systems and designed this to make up for all the weaknesses and although initial evaporator, controls etc. is an investment it saves hundreds if not thousand of dollars in trying to refurb old heater boxes, fans, motors, AC evaorators, controls, exansion valves, controls etc. On the net I think is less money then refurbing old and works alot better and fully maintainable
We have 2002 pretty turnkey as a kit or we do... Coupe I think will be easier but will know for sure over next few weeks as we install in our e9.
cheers
On the after market condenser, from Vintage Air, as shown in Chris's and Steve's set-up:
The two hose fittings have different diameters, which one should be on the top when the condenser is mounted in the car?
The two hose fittings have different diameters, which one should be on the top when the condenser is mounted in the car?
I have completed my condenser and fan installation
More info and photos when I return home to WA
More info and photos when I return home to WA
Wow that looks sweet. Wait till you pressure test everything before putting all the rest of the stuff back on around it!!
Great discussion. I wish all vintage car forums had the quality of contributions we have here.
Although I have no way of doing a back-to-back A vs. B comparison with regards to fans, I am running the stock Bosch fan (parallel condenser/Sanden/R12/everything renewed) and have no problems obtaining very good performance from it in terms of air outlet temperatures. My Bosch fan is in excellent working condition.
Modern cars have far less room in front of the engine to place 'thick' fans like the Bosch therefore the impetus to have thinner , larger (loud) fans like the Spals' design. That Bosch fan pushes quite a bit of air with its wide, high attack angle blades. While I am not saying that it blows more than a Spal, it may be sufficient for most conditions except an hour of LA traffic when it's 100 degrees in the shade. However... in that scenario, the fan might not be the weakest link in the chain but rather the large greenhouse, volume of air the evaporator blower puts out and body insulation and might be the overriding factors.
Although I have no way of doing a back-to-back A vs. B comparison with regards to fans, I am running the stock Bosch fan (parallel condenser/Sanden/R12/everything renewed) and have no problems obtaining very good performance from it in terms of air outlet temperatures. My Bosch fan is in excellent working condition.
Modern cars have far less room in front of the engine to place 'thick' fans like the Bosch therefore the impetus to have thinner , larger (loud) fans like the Spals' design. That Bosch fan pushes quite a bit of air with its wide, high attack angle blades. While I am not saying that it blows more than a Spal, it may be sufficient for most conditions except an hour of LA traffic when it's 100 degrees in the shade. However... in that scenario, the fan might not be the weakest link in the chain but rather the large greenhouse, volume of air the evaporator blower puts out and body insulation and might be the overriding factors.
This is an interesting thread - just spoke of this over the phone with OC Coupe (and I think HB Chris was in the car on the call as well?) discussing putting A/C from scratch into my Euro CSi which was always a non-A/C car. When I acquired to restore I lived in Santa Monica and A/C was not a real need, but since then have moved to Palm Springs, where it will be required, to say the least. For info purposes, the power plant is the stock CSi/D-Jet setup.
Since my coupe is completely stripped and disassembled, it is a great time to decide all this. I'm not the first person to ponder more efficient cooling in an E9, but I have a complete blank canvas and the choice to put in whatever components make the most sense. I've always thought that since the dash speaker space was right above the blower, it would be ideal (and possibly simple?) to route a duct straight up and out through the speaker, Heck, it could even be fun to fabricate an adjustable vent attached behind the speaker wood, with a discreet lever to go right or left. I do think that location lends itself to blowing the air to the top of the cabin, pushing the warner air back to the intakes and letting the cooler air settle down from the top of the cabin. Just a thought, and I'm in a position to try it out. Maybe the squirrel cage won't get the air up there! Its a short trip from blower to speaker so maybe it could work. I'd hate to be the guinea pig on this though, the first one through usually pays the most! Also Buildit's solution seems interesting, but we all know cooling a coupe interior is far different from cooling a 2002. I'd like to see more of what they're offering the e9 owner as far as a solution.
But on that thought - is there any possibility of using the guts (blower, evaporator, etc) of a later car, like an e28 or E24, and retrofitting it into the stock E9 console? I can't be the first to ask that question, but honestly have no knowledge on those later systems. I'm guessing size, hose and electrical hookups could prove problematic.
So it would be interesting to see what the collective knowledge of this great community would do it they had the chance to do it from scratch - with a disassembled car, and all the room to work with interior wise - and with the knowledge that there are a lot of 100+ degree days here (like mid June through mid October!) so keeping the car cool is an issue in the engine bay as well as the interior.
Thanks to you all for sharing such great info. Hope everyone is having a great holiday season.
Since my coupe is completely stripped and disassembled, it is a great time to decide all this. I'm not the first person to ponder more efficient cooling in an E9, but I have a complete blank canvas and the choice to put in whatever components make the most sense. I've always thought that since the dash speaker space was right above the blower, it would be ideal (and possibly simple?) to route a duct straight up and out through the speaker, Heck, it could even be fun to fabricate an adjustable vent attached behind the speaker wood, with a discreet lever to go right or left. I do think that location lends itself to blowing the air to the top of the cabin, pushing the warner air back to the intakes and letting the cooler air settle down from the top of the cabin. Just a thought, and I'm in a position to try it out. Maybe the squirrel cage won't get the air up there! Its a short trip from blower to speaker so maybe it could work. I'd hate to be the guinea pig on this though, the first one through usually pays the most! Also Buildit's solution seems interesting, but we all know cooling a coupe interior is far different from cooling a 2002. I'd like to see more of what they're offering the e9 owner as far as a solution.
But on that thought - is there any possibility of using the guts (blower, evaporator, etc) of a later car, like an e28 or E24, and retrofitting it into the stock E9 console? I can't be the first to ask that question, but honestly have no knowledge on those later systems. I'm guessing size, hose and electrical hookups could prove problematic.
So it would be interesting to see what the collective knowledge of this great community would do it they had the chance to do it from scratch - with a disassembled car, and all the room to work with interior wise - and with the knowledge that there are a lot of 100+ degree days here (like mid June through mid October!) so keeping the car cool is an issue in the engine bay as well as the interior.
Thanks to you all for sharing such great info. Hope everyone is having a great holiday season.
If ultimate cooling is the goal then you need to do what you can everywhere. Dynamat, reflective foil, strongest legal window tint ( detracts from the greenhouse look IMO ), ceramic coating, etc etc.
Upgrade the compressor, bypass the heater / blower, insulate the evaporator and make sure all the connections are efficient.
For the engine - install an oil cooler and the most efficient radiator you can buy.
I remember when some hot rodders used to set the hood up so that it was slightly open at the wind shield end to allow engine bay heat to escape, something that should be relatively easy to do with the coupe - if you can put up with the look of it. Maybe summer only.
Check out DEI for wraps and heat shields. Dynamat for body insulation.
I live in Queensland Australia and as I write it is 30 degrees C and 80% humidity, so I am on a mission to get a cool car.
Upgrade the compressor, bypass the heater / blower, insulate the evaporator and make sure all the connections are efficient.
For the engine - install an oil cooler and the most efficient radiator you can buy.
I remember when some hot rodders used to set the hood up so that it was slightly open at the wind shield end to allow engine bay heat to escape, something that should be relatively easy to do with the coupe - if you can put up with the look of it. Maybe summer only.
Check out DEI for wraps and heat shields. Dynamat for body insulation.
I live in Queensland Australia and as I write it is 30 degrees C and 80% humidity, so I am on a mission to get a cool car.
I'm in the same situation as far as installing cooling to deal with Texas summer heat. I've looked at the possibility of putting in later evaporator/fan units, and there simply isn't the space available. The E9 unit was an early one, and Germans weren't known for putting effective AC into their cars until later.
The story goes that the US dealers were getting feedback in the early 80's from their customers that the AC was inadequate to deal with Summer heat so they invited some BMW engineers to Texas and then took them for a drive of several hours in the back of a BMW sedan that had the rear window switches disconnected. The AC was on full, but before the trip was over they got the message. An internet story, so who knows?
Anyway, did some head scratching and roughly calculated that it might be possible to put the E28 evaporator unit in under the dash, but only if modification of the tunnel was done to reduce its height. Since that could weaken the body if not done correctly, not to mention being pretty radical and possibly interfere with the shift linkage, I abandoned any thought of installing any later stock unit.
Rob Siegel did have a custom evaporator made that was larger, or thicker, or had more passes of the refrigerant that still fit inside the E9 housing when he did the AC on Warp 9 many years ago, so some improvement there is possible, though very custom. Not sure it's easy to find someone with such skills. He posted about it here. The search function is your friend.
I've decided to go with as large a condenser as possible, Sanden style compressor and the heater core shut off. Oh, and lots of Dynamat as well as heat shields between the body and exhaust to keep that heat away from the body as much as possible. There's an E24 shield that fits well that's been discussed here. I've also got some sheet stainless steel and a sheet metal brake, so I'll make some additional ones as well.
Ian
The story goes that the US dealers were getting feedback in the early 80's from their customers that the AC was inadequate to deal with Summer heat so they invited some BMW engineers to Texas and then took them for a drive of several hours in the back of a BMW sedan that had the rear window switches disconnected. The AC was on full, but before the trip was over they got the message. An internet story, so who knows?
Anyway, did some head scratching and roughly calculated that it might be possible to put the E28 evaporator unit in under the dash, but only if modification of the tunnel was done to reduce its height. Since that could weaken the body if not done correctly, not to mention being pretty radical and possibly interfere with the shift linkage, I abandoned any thought of installing any later stock unit.
Rob Siegel did have a custom evaporator made that was larger, or thicker, or had more passes of the refrigerant that still fit inside the E9 housing when he did the AC on Warp 9 many years ago, so some improvement there is possible, though very custom. Not sure it's easy to find someone with such skills. He posted about it here. The search function is your friend.
I've decided to go with as large a condenser as possible, Sanden style compressor and the heater core shut off. Oh, and lots of Dynamat as well as heat shields between the body and exhaust to keep that heat away from the body as much as possible. There's an E24 shield that fits well that's been discussed here. I've also got some sheet stainless steel and a sheet metal brake, so I'll make some additional ones as well.
Ian
Not trying to be a besserwisser, all your other examples were good! But what I quoted is not a good idea except if the car is standing still. At speed that's a high pressure air-zone and will only press turbulenced air back in "the wrong way" if you have it open.
Reverse hood scoops used for engine air intakes works by that same principle, they usually have the scoop + intake sealed off from the engine compartment if possible.
But lot's of people do it because it looks "cool", I did it myself when I was younger
I don't understand. My reference is to hot air trapped in the under hood area. How can a gap at the rear of the hood, ("press turbulenced air back in "the wrong way" ), add more hot air? At worst it will add outside air, which will be cooler anyway, and at best hot air will escape, whether the car is moving or stationary, which is the purpose of the gap.
In any case it was just an observation, not something I will be doing.
In any case it was just an observation, not something I will be doing.
Attachments
Theoretically air moves through the engine compartment from front and escapes down under the car. Opening up the rear of the hood can potentially cause unwanted turbulence in the engine compartment (and will cause turbulence/drag on top of the front windscreen, not that it matters in this case) since you now have air flowing from the front and from the upper rear.
Turbulence is the worst if you’re looking to have a good, consistent cooling.
More air is good, but how it flows is more important. Note that it probably wont be noticeable in any way in our cars.
This is all theoretical, but it’s proven in wind tunnels and such. It might help to get more fresh air into the fresh air intake on our cars, but at the same time it will make the gasket between engine compartment and the fresh air intake to not seal at all, potentially letting way more fumes into the cabin when standing still and at slow speeds.
Turbulence is the worst if you’re looking to have a good, consistent cooling.
More air is good, but how it flows is more important. Note that it probably wont be noticeable in any way in our cars.
This is all theoretical, but it’s proven in wind tunnels and such. It might help to get more fresh air into the fresh air intake on our cars, but at the same time it will make the gasket between engine compartment and the fresh air intake to not seal at all, potentially letting way more fumes into the cabin when standing still and at slow speeds.
Consider me educated - ish.
thehackmechanic
Well-Known Member
Sorry for the delay. Just saw this.
I've written a lot about a/c in this forum. I'm currently working on my next book, "Just Needs a Recharge: The Hack Mechanic Guide to Vintage Air Conditioning." Below is the excerpt about the prospect of adapting an integrated heat/ac climate control box:
"One option is to try to adapt one of the modern aftermarket units that offer genuine climate control—an evaporator and heater core in the same box with their streams blended together—giving you a modern single-knob single-fan single-air-stream solution. Part of the appeal here is that a modern box has a modern fan motor that probably moves a lot more air than the ancient squirrel cages in an original evaporator assembly. However, there are four primary issues.
The first is that the unit has to physically fit in the car. On a front-engine rear-wheel-drive vintage car, this means the unit has to fit on top of the transmission hump and under the dashboard. On small cars like BMW 2002s, there’s very little space there.
Next is that, because these units contain a heater core, the car’s existing heater box needs to be permanently removed so the new heater core can be connected. Since a stock heater box and fan usually sits against the firewall in a very specifically-sized cut-out, it’s likely that the firewall cut-out needs to be completely blocked off. As part of this blocking off, you have to understand that, on most vintage cars, the path that the fresh air takes is through this opening and then through the heater box. Thus, if you block off the opening, and if the climate control box doesn’t offer another path for fresh air (and most don’t), you’ve eliminated the ability to get fresh air into the car unless you open a window. To me, this alone is a non-starter. Maybe it’s not to you, but you should be aware of it.
Next, you need to interface the knobs and the flap controls on one of these units with the existing dash sliders and ductwork on your car. If you have a common well-supported vintage car like a Mustang, you may be able to find a kit that does this for you from a company like Vintage Air, Nostalgic Air, or Old Air Products, but if you’re looking to, say, interface one of these to a BMW 2002, you’re on your own.
Lastly, there’s the issue of the console. Since none of these units is even remotely stock, good luck wrapping it all in an original console, or at least one that looks remotely period-correct. Of course, you might not care how it looks, or want to build your own console out of burled walnut and an old saddle, and if that’s the case, more power to you. But the console is literally in the center of the dashboard. It’s something they eye is drawn to, particularly if it’s non-original. The more non-stock a console looks, the more it is a reflection of your personal taste, and thus the more chancy it is that, when you sell the car, the prospective buyer will share your unique taste. Most folks are well-advised to, whatever they do for an evaporator assembly, stick with a console that looks as close to stock as humanly possible."
Note that a number of years back, I bought just the enclosure of one of these all-in-one boxes for a 2002 (a Hurricane 2000 enclosure), and I couldn't get it to fit on the transmission tunnel. No idea about whether it would fit on an E9. But even if it would, I am frightened off by the other issues.
I have nothing against the poster Buildit (SelectClassics), but with the increasing value of E9 coupes, I would be very careful of taking an a/c approach that makes the console look non-stock in any way.
--Rob
I've written a lot about a/c in this forum. I'm currently working on my next book, "Just Needs a Recharge: The Hack Mechanic Guide to Vintage Air Conditioning." Below is the excerpt about the prospect of adapting an integrated heat/ac climate control box:
"One option is to try to adapt one of the modern aftermarket units that offer genuine climate control—an evaporator and heater core in the same box with their streams blended together—giving you a modern single-knob single-fan single-air-stream solution. Part of the appeal here is that a modern box has a modern fan motor that probably moves a lot more air than the ancient squirrel cages in an original evaporator assembly. However, there are four primary issues.
The first is that the unit has to physically fit in the car. On a front-engine rear-wheel-drive vintage car, this means the unit has to fit on top of the transmission hump and under the dashboard. On small cars like BMW 2002s, there’s very little space there.
Next is that, because these units contain a heater core, the car’s existing heater box needs to be permanently removed so the new heater core can be connected. Since a stock heater box and fan usually sits against the firewall in a very specifically-sized cut-out, it’s likely that the firewall cut-out needs to be completely blocked off. As part of this blocking off, you have to understand that, on most vintage cars, the path that the fresh air takes is through this opening and then through the heater box. Thus, if you block off the opening, and if the climate control box doesn’t offer another path for fresh air (and most don’t), you’ve eliminated the ability to get fresh air into the car unless you open a window. To me, this alone is a non-starter. Maybe it’s not to you, but you should be aware of it.
Next, you need to interface the knobs and the flap controls on one of these units with the existing dash sliders and ductwork on your car. If you have a common well-supported vintage car like a Mustang, you may be able to find a kit that does this for you from a company like Vintage Air, Nostalgic Air, or Old Air Products, but if you’re looking to, say, interface one of these to a BMW 2002, you’re on your own.
Lastly, there’s the issue of the console. Since none of these units is even remotely stock, good luck wrapping it all in an original console, or at least one that looks remotely period-correct. Of course, you might not care how it looks, or want to build your own console out of burled walnut and an old saddle, and if that’s the case, more power to you. But the console is literally in the center of the dashboard. It’s something they eye is drawn to, particularly if it’s non-original. The more non-stock a console looks, the more it is a reflection of your personal taste, and thus the more chancy it is that, when you sell the car, the prospective buyer will share your unique taste. Most folks are well-advised to, whatever they do for an evaporator assembly, stick with a console that looks as close to stock as humanly possible."
Note that a number of years back, I bought just the enclosure of one of these all-in-one boxes for a 2002 (a Hurricane 2000 enclosure), and I couldn't get it to fit on the transmission tunnel. No idea about whether it would fit on an E9. But even if it would, I am frightened off by the other issues.
I have nothing against the poster Buildit (SelectClassics), but with the increasing value of E9 coupes, I would be very careful of taking an a/c approach that makes the console look non-stock in any way.
--Rob
Damn - you release these titles just after need them. By the time you finish "Just Needs a Recharge: The Hack Mechanic Guide to Vintage Air Conditioning" my air con' will be finished.
Like your "Guide to European Automotive Electrical Systems", I did buy that book - just after I had most of the electrics done by a professional, ( though that pro was the Don himself so I can't complain ), because I didn't know my actuators from my zirconia sensors.
Please check with me first before writing again Rob to see what stage I will need a book for.
Like your "Guide to European Automotive Electrical Systems", I did buy that book - just after I had most of the electrics done by a professional, ( though that pro was the Don himself so I can't complain ), because I didn't know my actuators from my zirconia sensors.
Please check with me first before writing again Rob to see what stage I will need a book for.
..
... Leonine99
"Heck, it could even be fun to fabricate an adjustable vent attached behind the speaker wood, with a discreet lever to go right"
One area where the 2000CS was ahead of the 3.0CS
"Heck, it could even be fun to fabricate an adjustable vent attached behind the speaker wood, with a discreet lever to go right"
One area where the 2000CS was ahead of the 3.0CS
I am putting the nose of my car back together and after reading this most excellent thread, I have three questions:
- Many seem to be using the 16x20 condenser. Unfortunately it is out of stock at Nostalgic Air. Their emails are not being answered very fast and their phone does not go anywhere so I can't ask them when t will be back in stock. I think Chris Ohmess and Rob Siegel went with the 16x22. I am assuming that these fit otherwise they would have said something. I know there is room for that size condenser but you have to add a 90 degree fitting on the passenger side of the condenser to bring the pipe downward. That fitting does take a decent amount of room. Any major problem there? Any photos of those with a 16x22?
- At some point does the size of the condenser become a problem for the radiator? Obviously the bigger it is, the more the air flow from the front of the car will be affected. is there a need to keep at least x amount of clear space for air to reach the radiator directly?
- Which model Sanden are you guys using? Based on what I read the Sanden 508 with double pully would seem to be the choice. Does that sound right?
https://nostalgicac.com/compressors...pressors/sanden-508-v-belt-double-groove.html
Thank you.
- Many seem to be using the 16x20 condenser. Unfortunately it is out of stock at Nostalgic Air. Their emails are not being answered very fast and their phone does not go anywhere so I can't ask them when t will be back in stock. I think Chris Ohmess and Rob Siegel went with the 16x22. I am assuming that these fit otherwise they would have said something. I know there is room for that size condenser but you have to add a 90 degree fitting on the passenger side of the condenser to bring the pipe downward. That fitting does take a decent amount of room. Any major problem there? Any photos of those with a 16x22?
- At some point does the size of the condenser become a problem for the radiator? Obviously the bigger it is, the more the air flow from the front of the car will be affected. is there a need to keep at least x amount of clear space for air to reach the radiator directly?
- Which model Sanden are you guys using? Based on what I read the Sanden 508 with double pully would seem to be the choice. Does that sound right?
https://nostalgicac.com/compressors...pressors/sanden-508-v-belt-double-groove.html
Thank you.
Lots of other brands out there:
https://www.amazon.com/Condenser-16x20-Depth-Unpainted-CN-PF1620/dp/B00GOHQ0FW
Although I used 16x20 there was room for 16x22 I think.
https://www.amazon.com/Condenser-16x20-Depth-Unpainted-CN-PF1620/dp/B00GOHQ0FW
Although I used 16x20 there was room for 16x22 I think.
this is the condenser I am using:
Nostalgic AC Parts 1 44-1618 16 X 18 Superflow R-134a Condenser
Core size: 15" tall x 18" wide x 7/8" thick
Overall condenser size: 16" tall x 20" wide
Seems like a 22" overall would be a tight fit
The tubes, or hoses would go forward of the 'bulkhead' so seems like that would work
You could mock it up
I think 'everyone' else just runs the hoses to the connectors
Nostalgic AC Parts 1 44-1618 16 X 18 Superflow R-134a Condenser
Core size: 15" tall x 18" wide x 7/8" thick
Overall condenser size: 16" tall x 20" wide
Seems like a 22" overall would be a tight fit
The tubes, or hoses would go forward of the 'bulkhead' so seems like that would work
You could mock it up
I think 'everyone' else just runs the hoses to the connectors
I believe I am using the same condenser as Steve
it looks like it is in stock:
https://nostalgicac.com/16-x-18-superflow-r-134a-condenser.html
it looks like it is in stock:
https://nostalgicac.com/16-x-18-superflow-r-134a-condenser.html