Getting this 3.0CSi back on the road

[Markos]

Thanks Bo, that brings the next questions, did your coupe have three point belts in the rear? I've been trying to figure out if two point belts will be enough to secure the child car seats or not.
Also, did you have the seat mounted rear-facing or front-facing? I'm looking to have it mounted rear-facing, but not sure if there's enough room.

Hi Gransin,

The lap belt is sufficient for car seat bases. The shoulder belt doesn’t really do anything for car seats, and must be locked anyway. A lap belt is really no different than the LATCH system. You could add a tether anchor to the parcel shelf if desired.

The seat needs to be rear facing for Frank. He doesn’t have enough neck stength relative to the size and weight of his head. You can use “pool noodles” to level the car seat in the rear. Try behind the passenger seat with the front seat moved uncomfortably forward.

The way to gain some real estate with rear facing seats is to mount in the middle seat. Since couples don’t have one, you could have blue devil or someone make you a double male ended lap belt. Try staging the car seat in the middle and see if you gain any n see space. Another option for the middle spot is to bolt LATCH anchors to the spot where he female seat belt claps are secured.

The middle of the car is safer for side impacts and on a coupe, the area is more level. The child seat should be very difficult to move side to side. I’m not sure if it is offered in your country, but in the US your local fire station will show you how to properly install a car seat.

One last disclaimer. Car seat manufacturers will specify that you are not to straddle two latch systems. That generally means doing use latch for the middle seat if there is no specific system for that seat. I think they want you to avoided fanning out the latch straps to reach the anchors. Not that I had any accidents, but I ran our rear facing car seat in the middle spanning two latch systems for a few years. air fit well and gave is the needed space.

The coupe is narrow so latch anchors hooked up to the seatbelt points should keep the latch straps nice and square with the car seat.

 

[Gransin]

Brilliant! Congrats on the little guy!

Thanks Steve!

Hi Gransin,

The lap belt is sufficient for car seat bases. The shoulder belt doesn’t really do anything for car seats, and must be locked anyway. A lap belt is really no different than the LATCH system. You could add a tether anchor to the parcel shelf if desired.

The seat needs to be rear facing for Frank. He doesn’t have enough neck stength relative to the size and weight of his head. You can use “pool noodles” to level the car seat in the rear. Try behind the passenger seat with the front seat moved uncomfortably forward.

The way to gain some real estate with rear facing seats is to mount in the middle seat. Since couples don’t have one, you could have blue devil or someone make you a double male ended lap belt. Try staging the car seat in the middle and see if you gain any n see space. Another option for the middle spot is to bolt LATCH anchors to the spot where he female seat belt claps are secured.

The middle of the car is safer for side impacts and on a coupe, the area is more level. The child seat should be very difficult to move side to side. I’m not sure if it is offered in your country, but in the US your local fire station will show you how to properly install a car seat.

One last disclaimer. Car seat manufacturers will specify that you are not to straddle two latch systems. That generally means doing use latch for the middle seat if there is no specific system for that seat. I think they want you to avoided fanning out the latch straps to reach the anchors. Not that I had any accidents, but I ran our rear facing car seat in the middle spanning two latch systems for a few years. air fit well and gave is the needed space.

The coupe is narrow so latch anchors hooked up to the seatbelt points should keep the latch straps nice and square with the car seat.
View attachment 37515

Lot's of tips, great!

Yes, I know the car seat has to be rear facing up to 3-4 years, we actually had a horrible fatal accident here locally a couple of days ago, which probably could have been avoided if the car seat was rear facing.
But I don't know if it's even possible given the tight space in the rear, so I was just figuring someone else might have tried it before. If it wont go in rear facing, he will have to wait some years.
I would of course test if I had a car seat, but we haven't bought one yet (we're using a smaller baby carriage with isofix base in our daily drivers). The baby carriage would fit, but he will be too big to sit in one when the car is finished.

I've only seen car seats with isofix for sale in Finland, those wont give so much (not any at all) flexibility in terms of moving the straps to the side, they have a fixed distance between them, but I will still have to figure out if I securily could bolt on some isofix anchors to where the female seat belt claps are bolted.

It's great to have some new ideas to think about, this is a new world to me, so there's always something you're missing or don't think about, thanks for the input!

 

[Markos]

Sorry if some of that stuff is obvious.

Check out Britax. They are the most popular brand in Europe and the seats are excellent. The latch straps have adjustable lengths. Another thing to note is that the infant car seats are more horizontal. When you go up to the larger car seat they can actually fit better than an infant car seat because the child sits more vertical.

If I run any errands today I’ll swing by my car and see how the Britax marathon fits in the back, both in the middle and behind the passenger seat. I’ll also text a few folks I know with kids. One has a 3yo and the other has one under 1.

 

[Gransin]

Sorry if some of that stuff is obvious.

Check out Britax. They are the most popular brand in Europe and the seats are excellent. The latch straps have adjustable lengths. Another thing to note is that the infant car seats are more horizontal. When you go up to the larger car seat they can actually fit better than an infant car seat because the child sits more vertical.

If I run any errands today I’ll swing by my car and see how the Britax marathon fits in the back, both in the middle and behind the passenger seat. I’ll also text a few folks I know with kids. One has a 3yo and the other has one under 1.

Perfect, thank you so much! And note that I'm not in a hurry, so feel no stress if other things come up

 

[Markos]

Perfect, thank you so much! And note that I'm not in a hurry, so feel no stress if other things come up

Good deal. I just remembered that the rear seats aren’t in my project car at the moment. I will test in my parts car and take some measurements.

 

[restart]

How about rear facing in the front seat?
This from a guy who grew up before seat belts were fashionable. I know I always wanted to see my kids face and vice versa.
And the back strain issue is important. Pretty sure I have bought some 2 door cars at a reduced price just because the owners devalued them because it was so difficult to load baby back there. Of course this necessitated a passenger willingness to ride in the back.

 

[Bmachine]

Hi Gransin,

The lap belt is sufficient for car seat bases. The shoulder belt doesn’t really do anything for car seats, and must be locked anyway. A lap belt is really no different than the LATCH system. You could add a tether anchor to the parcel shelf if desired.

All agreed with what Markos said. I would actually emphasize that a lap belt is far better than the three point belt for a car seat. Especially if it is a manual, non retractable one. I seem to remember that this is what the ‘72 has but I could be wrong. The three pointer makes it harder to lock it in place and it often tries to lift up a bit bc of the shoulder belt.

 

[Markos]

All agreed with what Markos said. I would actually emphasize that a lap belt is far better than the three point belt for a car seat. Especially if it is a manual, non retractable one. I seem to remember that this is what the ‘72 has but I could be wrong. The three pointer makes it harder to lock it in place and it often tries to lift up a bit bc of the shoulder belt.

Agreed. With new cars you extend the shoulder belt all the way. When the belt winds back it will no longer extend. This started in the mid 2000’s. For older should belts, you need to use one of these to lock the shoulder portion to the lap portion.

 

[restart]

There’s,the beauty...the front belt on my driver allows one to separate the shoulder belt.
In fact that shoulder belt in my car front seems like an after thought. The spot where the shoulder belt contacts the front seat base lower bolster is a serious wear point. I removed it for that reason.

 

[Gransin]

Thanks guys for your thoughts on this!
I’ve been thinking of putting it in the passenger front seat, but with my scheels.. not sure it will fit so good, but I’m definitely going to try it if the backseat fails.

After all, we’re probably talking about a couple of drives per summer with the car seat in the car, so I think I’d survive even if it’s killing the back to lift it in the back seat.

Good to know that a two point belt might even be better, then I can forget trying to put in a three point in the back seat.

Thanks!

 

[eriknetherlands]

Hi Gransin,

First of all congratulations!
Good of you to first build the car and the garage, and afterwards the child. If the chronological order was the other way around, the finances are quickly re-allocated by a "significant other" to 'more important' baby stuff. AMHIK...

Some expert advise on baby car seats; I'm the car seat safety specialist at Europe's largest child seat manufacturer, responsible for UN Regulation activities & technical execution thereof. And have a three kid experience in an E9.

If your car came with seat belts (either 2 or 3 point) from the factory, you can and must use a car seat in Finland by law. If there are no belts at all, national legislation applies and it will likely forbid the transport of unbelted children up to 3 or 4 years.

Depending on your car seat it is mandatory rear facing up to at least 9kg's (for older Regulation 44 approved car seats );or up to 15 months if you buy a state of the art child seat (Regulation 129). Flip your car seat upside down and look for an (often orange) label with a circle and a capital "E" with a number in it. On this label is also the approval number starting with 04... for R44 seats. or ..R129....for the 15 month rear facing seats.

Following the Nordic 'Religion"of keeping children rear facing in a car, indeed keeping your child rear facing for as long as possible is best. Ask Volvo and they say up to 6 years; If you manage keeping your kid rear facing for 3 years you're outperforming most Nordic parents already.

From a safety perspective the advise to position your child in the center holds true all over the world, it is simply furthest away from intrusion, however there are no seat belts in the middle.
Thus you are left with rear outboard as safest option, or front passenger as the least safe, but practical alternative.
A baby shell, even with base, fits both in the rear behind the passenger seat when you slide it forward, as well as on the passenger seat.

You can use a standard baby shell in the rear with just the 2 point belt; no problem. Almost all baby shells (Maxi-Cosi, Britax) will only show 3 point belt instructions in the user manual, but a 2 point belt will work as well. The 2 point belt goes over an adults legs; it should pass over the legs of the baby as well.
Some manufacturers have a base that installs with a belt (google 'Easybase' or 'Easyfix', both will fit a 2 point belt). Using a base adds comfort, as the baby shell just clips in/on the base . It also adds safety as you need to install the vehicle belt only once; less chance of doing it wrong. It however adds on the cost too. Given the fact that crash safety of an E9 is virtually non-existent; buy the most expensive child restraint you can afford. Price does reflect crash performance.

If I see it correctly, you have a Britax or Hauck branded base. I think it will fit in the e9 with the lap belt, both front and rear.

Let me know if it doesn't work out.
Glad to help taking care a future E9 owner...

 

[Gransin]

Hi Gransin,

First of all congratulations!
Good of you to first build the car and the garage, and afterwards the child. If the chronological order was the other way around, the finances are quickly re-allocated by a "significant other" to 'more important' baby stuff. AMHIK...

Some expert advise on baby car seats; I'm the car seat safety specialist at Europe's largest child seat manufacturer, responsible for UN Regulation activities & technical execution thereof. And have a three kid experience in an E9.

If your car came with seat belts (either 2 or 3 point) from the factory, you can and must use a rear facing seat in Finland by law. If there are no belts at all, national legislation applies and it will likely forbid the transport of unbelted children up to 3 or 4 years.

Depending on your car seat it is mandatory rear facing up to at least 9kg's (for older Regulation 44 approved car seats );or up to 15 months if you buy a state of the art child seat (Regulation 129). Flip your car seat upside down and look for an (often orange) label with a circle and a capital "E" with a number in it. On this label is also the approval number starting with 04... for R44 seats. or ..R129....for the 15 month rear facing seats.

Following the Nordic 'Religion"of keeping children rear facing in a car, indeed keeping your child rear facing for as long as possible is best. Ask Volvo and they say up to 6 years; If you manage that for 3 years you're outperforming most Nordic parents already.

From a safety perspective the advise to position your child in the center holds true all over the world, it is simply furthest away from intrusion, however there are no seat belts in the middle.
Thus you are left with rear outboard as safest option, or front passenger as the least safe, but practical alternative.
A baby shell, even with base, fits both in the rear behind the passenger seat when you slide it forward, as well as on the passenger seat.

You can use a standard baby shell in the rear with just the 2 point belt; no problem. Almost all baby shells (Maxi-Cosi, Britax) will only show 3 point belt instructions in the user manual, but a 2 point belt will work as well. The 2 point belt goes over an adults legs; it should pass over the legs of the baby as well.
Some manufacturers have a base that installs with a belt (google 'Easybase' or 'Easyfix', both will fit a 2 point belt). Using a base adds comfort, as the baby shell just clips in/on the base . It also adds safety as you need to install the vehicle belt only once; less chance of doing it wrong. It however adds on the cost too. Given the fact that crash safety of an E9 is virtually non-existent; buy the most expensive child restraint you can afford. Price does reflect crash performance.

If I see it correctly, you have a Britax or Hauck branded base. I think it will fit in the e9 with the lap belt, both front and rear.

Let me know if it doesn't work out.
Glad to help taking care a future E9 owner...

Thank you, Erik!

Haha, I can tell you that none of this has been even remotely planned. 4,5 years ago I was single and just searching for a BMW project car as I didn't have much else to do, e9 was the dream so I bought this one with the intention of doing a fast repaint with some small rust repairs over the winter, but that seriously went in another direction. Then I somehow managed to find a very understanding girlfriend who still gladly put up with my hobby and all kinds of time consuming projects, and at the same time very lucky to find this house and have the possibility to build myself that garage just in time before the baby arrived.
So I'm very grateful for what I have and how it turned out, sometimes I still can't believe it myself.

I feel like I'm in good hands having someone with that title helping out, impressive!
Good to be sure that you can use two point belts even if all manuals have three points in them.
Right now we use a borrowed, but as good as new Britax Primo (0-13kg) with isofix base, but he's growing out of that one fast, he's already 8,5kg, and he will not fit, or just barely, in that one come summer.

We're going to buy a new bigger car seat (9-25kg) after the winter is over, and yesterday evening we sat down having a look at what's available on the market. Mostly based on what our friends have told us, we are considering the Britax Multi-Tech III, which uses belt + support leg and lower tethers when mounted rear facing. But the seat is new on the market, and there isn't any reviews that I can find on that seat yet, so still open to other recommendations, feel free to tell me if there's better/more practical options out there.

Again, thank you all for taking the time to help out in this djungle, I already feel like I got a little grip on it

 

[pat cooks]

Hmmmmmmm, looked so nice and solid on the trailer home, E9's are very good at hiding rust, just make sure you waxoil everywhere when it has been painted, and then waxoil it again, then take a look with an endoscope Pat

 

[Gransin]

Hmmmmmmm, looked so nice and solid on the trailer home, E9's are very good at hiding rust, just make sure you waxoil everywhere when it has been painted, and then waxoil it again, then take a look with an endoscope Pat

It sure did, didn't it.. I had been reading about these quite a lot before I bought it, so it didn't come as a surprise that way, but yeah, I was mildly tired of bodywork when I was done with it. At the same time it was very rewarding.
Let's just hope I did learn something from it, and that I remember it if an Alfa 105/115-series should pop up for sale for "cheap"

The car has been rust-proofed once by a local guy I know who owns a rust-proofing shop. I walked him through the car and showed him all the places/boxes/crevices I wanted taken extra care of, and left him with a detailed checklist so I was sure he would remember everything. He's been helping out with several restorations himself, so he knows what it's all about and that these old ones need all the help they can get. I'm thinking of having him go through the process again, just to be sure, but it's quite expensive.

 

[restart]

Yes wow, less than 3 years!

Hmmmmmmm, looked so nice and solid on the trailer home, E9's are very good at hiding rust, just make sure you waxoil everywhere when it has been painted, and then waxoil it again, then take a look with an endoscope Pat

 

[Gransin]

Yes wow, less than 3 years!

Actually, it’s 4 and a half years since I bought the car, June 2013. I started this thread a year later

 

[Bmachine]

From a safety perspective the advise to position your child in the center holds true all over the world, it is simply furthest away from intrusion, however there are no seat belts in the middle.
Thus you are left with rear outboard as safest option, or front passenger as the least safe, but practical alternative.
A baby shell, even with base, fits both in the rear behind the passenger seat when you slide it forward, as well as on the passenger seat

I want to reiterate what Markos mentioned earlier and which sounds like a great idea to me: get a short male - male belt made that can latch to the female end of each side seat. And presto: center seat belt for a car seat.

 

[eriknetherlands]

I want to reiterate what Markos mentioned earlier and which sounds like a great idea to me: get a short male - male belt made that can latch to the female end of each side seat. And presto: center seat belt for a car seat.

Unfortunately, legally in the EU you are not allowed to change anything on the safety equipment.
In the case of restoration however things usually are changed, for the better even. If changes were made, usually eu countries require you to submit your vehicle for a technical check before it is allowed to enter public roads.

I dont think a self invented third seating posistion will pass such an inspection.

However, looking at Gransins tech capabilities, i have no doubt that he could make a center seat belt in a safe manner. The center seat would be the safest possibility, and very likely a police officer will not know all of these above details.

If in Finland you have to do some ( annual ) mandatory tech checks every other year or so, you may need to unbolt the " invented" centre seat belts prior to inspection....

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G800F met Tapatalk

 

[Dan Mooney]

Actually, it’s 4 and a half years since I bought the car, June 2013. I started this thread a year later

Congratulations Gransin on doing a magnificent job with your CSi restoration! As someone who restores cars for a living, I am absolutely blown away by your efforts.

Absolutely amazing. Well done!!!
Dan

 

[Markos]

If in Finland you have to do some ( annual ) mandatory tech checks every other year or so, you may need to unbolt the " invented" centre seat belts prior to inspection....

My recommendation on the center seatbelt didn’t involve any modifications. You just need a belt with two male ends, and you use the existing passenger receivers. The center LATCH reccomendation solved two issues. It is cheaper than a custom male belt. Latch is a heck of a lot faster and easier to install and remove (although lap belts only are pretty damn easy also). The downside is the regulation issues, and LATCH has a lower weight rating.

Anyway I think the center section is worth a shot because it is much flatter than the rear buckets. It is a bit narrow though so you need to ensure that you don’t get much lateral movement. I wouldn’t do it without tethering the top.