The end is near....SCOTTeVEST's Baby

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eriknetherlands

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Putting (expensive) paint on sills that will just bubble from inside, is a waste of money; everybody would agree I think.
If however the internals are solid, then I understand a choice to have it blinged-up and drive it for 10 years.
Problem is, I wouldn't know what you have in your hands.

So in order to make a solid choice, I would want to have a clear list of pro's (what's still solid) and con's (what's rotten).
You can only get that view by taking every bit of paint and bondo off the rockers, to get a better look at what's below.
Just cleaning the rockers is just a 2 hour job but its messy. To bondo it back up is no big effort, partly it is needed already. Also its covered by the decorative trim panel anyway, so it doesn't need to be mirror finished. Ask for bare metal from wheel to wheel, for 5 inches from the bottom upwards. Left and right.
Then pay them a visit and talk. I'd guess that you will find some holes.
I would always take the next step; Where ever there is a rust through hole, ask that it is opened up to check the layer below. If you again see holes, dig deeper...
If there are worms, find them or they'll simply eat their way out again.
It can turn out as a lot of work, or you could be surprised by marginal brown deposits.
Doing it this way provides massive insight and the right grounds to make a choice.

As a figure of speech; the further down, the worse they get. Don't think it'll be better closer to the ground.
See enclosed 2 images from your video.
Right rear quarter: I for one have doubts about these dark spots, which I think are holes through your outer sill. (inside the red square) If they are indeed holes, the intermediate sill will have rust too. Mind you there are three more layers in places behind it;
Left rear quarter: it's a guess but I think the lower portion of the B-pillar is gone, based on the rust that is visible it he orange circle. Where your body guy starts peeling bits off, you can see the transition of the inner sill to the lower b-Pillar. behind and below it gets even worse; i'm sure. behind the red circle I think it will be better, as that is a more closed area. I included a pic ("lower b-pillar left side)" of that exact spot on my car for reference; with the intermediate sill partly stripped out (it was wafer thin, just a pair of pliers allowed you to shred it to pieces). The bit of your B-pillar in the green square looks worse compared to that bit on my car...

Facts, not hopes, make better choices.

Another hot spot: How is the floor near the subframe mounts? I tried to indicate their position in the left side photo with the red arrow pointing upwards. Look beyond the sill, and upward. There is a large cilindrical rubber bushing that holds the rear subframe to the carfloor. Quite usually the floor also shows holes there. attached one pic from my car of that location. Remember it's holding your rear wheels.....

For what it's worth; I think that the rust in your sills comparable as on my car. Take a look at my thread on here somewhere (Fixing that little rustspot) if you want to get visuals of what could be (is?) beneath.

I'm hoping to be of assistance with the advice to expose the rockers.
 

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scottevest

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Extraordinarily helpful information. I forwarded to Painter for his opinion and we’ll go from there.
 

zinz

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I just did all of this on my 2000CS, Scott. Erik makes very good notes as to how to proceed.

I knew going into my project that all the paint would come off, but the rockers were the very first thing I exposed. There are 3 rocker layers and you can only truly inspect the inner sections by removing the outer rocker... Mine had obvious bubbling on several areas, then I found old fiberglass repairs and such. I made the decision to completely remove both outer rockers and I'm glad I did. Though the inner sections were mostly good, we did repair some thin areas on the base of one A-pillar and welded gussets on some middle rocker sections. Everything was treated with rust converter and primed to prevent any future problems.

Could I have simply repaired the obvious rust on the outer rockers... probably. It likely would have been plenty stout enough for a long time to come.. The trouble lies in not knowing what the A and B pillar bases look like without putting eyes directly on them. I may have found that they were completely crumbled away....

Here's a link to my build thread showing lots of pictures of the rockers and their replacement towards the bottom of Page 1 https://www.e9coupe.com/forum/threads/67-2000cs-resto-papas-church-car.26742/

Hope this helps, and good luck!

Ed Z
 

scottevest

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I just did all of this on my 2000CS, Scott. Erik makes very good notes as to how to proceed.

I knew going into my project that all the paint would come off, but the rockers were the very first thing I exposed. There are 3 rocker layers and you can only truly inspect the inner sections by removing the outer rocker... Mine had obvious bubbling on several areas, then I found old fiberglass repairs and such. I made the decision to completely remove both outer rockers and I'm glad I did. Though the inner sections were mostly good, we did repair some thin areas on the base of one A-pillar and welded gussets on some middle rocker sections. Everything was treated with rust converter and primed to prevent any future problems.

Could I have simply repaired the obvious rust on the outer rockers... probably. It likely would have been plenty stout enough for a long time to come.. The trouble lies in not knowing what the A and B pillar bases look like without putting eyes directly on them. I may have found that they were completely crumbled away....

Here's a link to my build thread showing lots of pictures of the rockers and their replacement towards the bottom of Page 1 https://www.e9coupe.com/forum/threads/67-2000cs-resto-papas-church-car.26742/

Hope this helps, and good luck!

Ed Z

I’ve shared everyone’s concerns with my painter. He advises me that if we go down a path that is determined to remediate all of the rest it will cost a great deal more money and take much more time. I have no appetite for either at this time. The next time I restore the car properly in 10 years or so I will take all the steps knowing that it would be cheaper to do it now than then


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JFENG

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Sometimes it’s still preferable to do it twice and end up spending more than to do it once the right way. If Scott really wants to pretty it up for a decade and then dive in deep layer. So what? I see nothing wrong as along as Scott knows he will be redoing/duplicating some of his current investment the second time around. We can ask no more of each other than making an informed decision. Right?

John
 

scottevest

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Sometimes it’s still preferable to do it twice and end up spending more than to do it once the right way. If Scott really wants to pretty it up for a decade and then dive in deep layer. So what? I see nothing wrong as along as Scott knows he will be redoing/duplicating some of his current investment the second time around. We can ask no more of each other than making an informed decision. Right?

John

My math is as follows: either spend what will be $10,000 now and enjoy the car for a decade before I end up spending a great deal more on a full restoration and all the while looking at it every single day wishing that I could justify full restoration now or just doing it now in this fashion and enjoying it for 10 years and then doing it right once I have the time and the resources. I did the math. It makes sense. The fact is that the Rust is not terrible and I believe it will not rear its ugly head for another decade or more. At least the remediation that will be done now will be done a lot better than what it was previously and we will take extraordinary steps to contain any further issues short of removal of all possible Rust where ever we might find it. I will take plenty more pictures so that there is a clear record but I have no intention of selling so it really doesn’t matter.


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JFENG

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My math is as follows: either spend what will be $10,000 now and enjoy the car for a decade

A full on redo might cost more than twice what you are spending. If you invest wisely you might actually end up ahead (assuming wages remain stagnant).

Guys, everyone has their own situation. For me, if the diff were $15-$20k I’d save it and buy another old car. I’d rather have 10 condition 2- classics than two condition 1+ Car (of the same net value).

Good luck with this Scott
 
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scottevest

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A full on redo might cost more than twice what you are spending. If you invest wisely you might actually end up ahead (assuming wages remain stagnant).

Guys, everyone has their own situation. For me, if the diff were $15-$20k I’d save it and buy another old car. I’d rather have 10 condition 2- classics than two condition 1+ Car (of the same net value).

Good luck with this Scott

Exactly my thinking


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zinz

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I should caveat my statements. I replaced the rockers and rust repairs myself... only cost was the W&N panels and welding supplies.

That's a huge difference.

Ed
 

mulberryworks

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everybody go out and buy a Scottevest jacket or vest ... and Scott can afford a total repaint. shameless plug, but you should really try one on ... they are great for travel and vacations

Already got mine, looking forward to France in May. Gonna miss The Vintage though. I'll make it next year, and I'll be bringing my fully restored coupe then. I hope.

Ian
 

JFENG

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we need progress pictures!! Tell the paint shop to take lots of pictures, particularly of what they find underneath. It's great documentation for (a) a future estimate for more in depth redo, (b) if you sell it (OMG) buyers will really appreciate that you have documentation of how solid it is under the shiny paint.

John
 

scottevest

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we need progress pictures!! Tell the paint shop to take lots of pictures, particularly of what they find underneath. It's great documentation for (a) a future estimate for more in depth redo, (b) if you sell it (OMG) buyers will really appreciate that you have documentation of how solid it is under the shiny paint.

John

Going to swing by the painter tomorrow and shoot an updated video. Thinking of using the 4K feature and just let you pause on the image rather than taking photography as well.

I had a lengthy conversation with him on Monday after I forwarded some of the comments here to him. He was very concerned that the plan had changed drastically. He was willing to go with the program but made it very clear that the program was completely different and it would likely cost a great deal more money and take a great deal more time and reminded me of what our initial goal was… To have a great looking car for another 10 years or so. He said the Rust work should take approximately three days at eight hours a day at $80 an hour Plus the cost of any of the replacement parts necessary that I am covering. I thought that seemed reasonable.


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arnie

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I’d rather have 10 condition 2- classics than two condition 1+ Car

I would agree, if this car would be a con 2 car, but sorry, it's obviously not. Spending 10 k$ for a shiny paint job will be just bloody waste of good money. As a good advise my Dad always said "half drunk is like throwing money to the trash bin".

I can understand at this stage it's very tricky to decide. You'd like to have your Lady back without all these ugly rust spots, but just applying sheet metal plasters and huge layers of bondo all over was a strategy in the 80s and is the main reason why it is so risky to buy an E9. You really can't see what's under these pretty new layers of paint.

For me here you only have two reasonable choices: Either sell as it is now or chose the right way of restoring it reasonable. But actually it's not yet a job for a painter, but skilled guy to do all the necessary body repairs. Your painter just found the tip of a big iceberg.
At this stage it won't wait a decade for the great comeback of the "brown buddy" and latest when the first bubble is lurking through that shiny new, perfect looking black paint, you'll regret, that's for sure.

Just my opinion
 

Belgiumbarry

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i would not fear that so much as Arnie .. yes, ofcourse we like to have our E9's in perfect condition. But that has a price tag. What we see is rust from 30 years ? in wind& rain.... and cheap repairs from the time...but now , in a dry garage and hardly driven in rain .... how fast will that rust continue ? good for another 30 years ?

I also wonder if insurance covers a in depth repair ? If i crash my 25k E9 i can hope for the best ... but if it had a 25k repair in it .... then i must take a omnium ? which is again expensive... sure if you have "5 " cars that way.
 

scottevest

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I would agree, if this car would be a con 2 car, but sorry, it's obviously not. Spending 10 k$ for a shiny paint job will be just bloody waste of good money. As a good advise my Dad always said "half drunk is like throwing money to the trash bin".

I can understand at this stage it's very tricky to decide. You'd like to have your Lady back without all these ugly rust spots, but just applying sheet metal plasters and huge layers of bondo all over was a strategy in the 80s and is the main reason why it is so risky to buy an E9. You really can't see what's under these pretty new layers of paint.

For me here you only have two reasonable choices: Either sell as it is now or chose the right way of restoring it reasonable. But actually it's not yet a job for a painter, but skilled guy to do all the necessary body repairs. Your painter just found the tip of a big iceberg.
At this stage it won't wait a decade for the great comeback of the "brown buddy" and latest when the first bubble is lurking through that shiny new, perfect looking black paint, you'll regret, that's for sure.

Just my opinion


While I appreciate all opinions generally, the decision NOT to do a full metal restoration has been made already, and now I am just trying to do my best to ensure it looks great for at least 10 years. Since it looked great since it's last paint job over 17 years ago and was clearly not done properly 17 years ago, I am confident that if done properly this time, it will last at least 10 years before I have to revisit this decision. If you guys don't mind, please refrain from telling me what I already know that it is preferable all things being equal to do this "right," but I don't have the budget or the patience or desire to do this "right" at this time, unless you all convince every member of this group and every other BMW group to replace your current wardrobe with www.scottevest.com :)

Going to visit the painter today. Let me know if there is anything in particular you want me to video or ask the painter, etc. I am going to shoot in 4k and take pictures of back of glove box and fuse area, among other areas. Thanks so much for all your opinions. I mean it, but future comments should deal with the plan I am on, and not the path that would otherwise result in a 6 figure car, which is not my current intention.

Having said all that, I truly believe that my coupe has less problem areas than the current BAT and last BAT coupe, but understand you may disagree but without removing rockers on those vehicles we will never know...

Thanks.
 

zinz

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I have an inexpensive idea for you, Scott. If you want to inspect the inner rocker areas without removing the entire panel, get yourself an inspection camera. They are relatively cheap ($150 ?) and allow you to probe into the recesses all over your car (pull a spark plug and look at the combustion chamber, lay it up into the upper fender recesses to look for rust, etc...). Heck, they even make them for iPhones.

If you can satisfy yourself that the inner structural areas are sound enough, then treat with rust-stop, get some Eastwoods inner frame coating and hose the insides, patch the outer, crusty bits and drive that mother.

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Ed
 

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