The end is near....SCOTTeVEST's Baby

[scottevest]

@arnie and @bfeng, AGREE completely on ALL points.
Frankly, I didn't know how to handle it. My buddy saw the fisheye and brought it to my attention. He said it is UNACCEPTABLE, and was clear about it. He said it occurred simply because there is dirt on base coat and it wasn't removed before base coat, and likely nothing can be done now as a result. He called it simply lazy. He was the one that recommended Benny to begin with, and has had MANY cars done by him, much nicer and rarer than my coupe. This guy seriously scared the shit out of me. Not kidding.

As far as project creep, I really don't see it that way much but understand how it seems that way. We always knew from get go that we'd likely see rust and deal with it as we discovered it. The rust we discovered was nowhere as bad as it could have been, and we cut some corners as you all know in fixing it. I knew it wasn't a show quality job, which imo meant no frame off restoration, etc. but I didn't expect to see clear fisheyes, not many but a few that are glaring.

If it costs more to fix this, I will pay for it, and will let him know and chat with him as recommended. The camera thing is something they are used to as well but I see your point. I have complimented them many times on how excited I am and impressed. Frankly, I will be a VERY vocal evangelist for them, and when I show off the car, any one who knows anything about paint will see these few obvious imperfections.

But I hear you loud and clear.

Scott

PS: I love Benny and Gary! 3 minor but glaring imperfections when everything else is very tight...
PPS: if you view the original quote, it was never just a repaint, but bumper install, fix obvious rust, fix several obvious problems, etc. Orig quote was $8500, which was very reasonable, but added ~$11k, and then some, for the remediation, etc. plus tons of parts and time chasing for me and all of you.
I am sure all will be well.

 

[scottevest]

PPS: the video is not posted publicly as others, but is marked unlisted and not on facebook like others, but your point is well taken.

 

[Gransin]

I call it PPD, post paint depression.
At first you’re absolutely up there in the clouds after seeing your car painted in a fresh coat of paint, but after a while, you start seeing the imperfections and you’re in free fall.
I know, I went through it with my car too.
It’s all about managing expectations, looking at other cars on the internet you get the impression that they all got perfect paint etc, and some of them really do have that. But then again you have to go back and look at what you paid for, did you spend $30k on just paint? If yes, then it’s reasonable to demand a very high level of quality and finish. Did you spend way less? Then you really have to blame yourself for not paying the price it costs for a perfect paintjob.

As I said, it can be hard, and an emotional rollercoaster. Next time I paint a classic car it’ll hurt my wallet much more, but hopefully I’ll avoid PPD.

 

[JayWltrs]

I call it PPD, post paint depression.
At first you’re absolutely up there in the clouds after seeing your car painted in a fresh coat of paint, but after a while, you start seeing the imperfections and you’re in free fall.
I know, I went through it with my car too.
It’s all about managing expectations, looking at other cars on the internet you get the impression that they all got perfect paint etc, and some of them really do have that. But then again you have to go back and look at what you paid for, did you spend $30k on just paint? If yes, then it’s reasonable to demand a very high level of quality and finish. Did you spend way less? Then you really have to blame yourself for not paying the price it costs for a perfect paintjob.

As I said, it can be hard, and an emotional rollercoaster. Next time I paint a classic car it’ll hurt my wallet much more, but hopefully I’ll avoid PPD.

My grandfather was a paint & body guy, and wasn’t as charitable a human as Benny. He assumed people were trying to shake him down by signing up for the Earl Scheib job then demanding show. Grandpa or someone in his shop would have kicked Scott’s butt, then him out of the shop, locked his car up, slapped a lien on it, insulted his family, and dared him to come back without cash. Not the right way to handle things, but a different time and a much rougher place. Probably why I never wanted to go to auto shops when I was younger.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[scottevest]

Really appreciate the feedback from everyone. I mean that sincerely. Again, in this case, what I am told is that there was some sort of dirt or sloppiness in a few areas on the basecoat. Given all the effort that Benny went to to in sure that everything was perfectly straight before painting I would’ve had to of assumed that this would’ve been resolved before putting the clearcoat on. I am going to talk with them politely today and let him know how I feel about this and that if additional money is required to fix these few issues I am willing to pay but not willing to except delivery with these imperfections as shown. I will try to be very polite and will not use the video. By the way, the issue with the brake was simply that Gary had the rear brake on the front. I thought we ordered new brake rotors all around but apparently Gary told me just the rear. Lastly, have any of you had any good experiences with this product for painting the interior vinyl and leather to restore the look?

https://www.colorbondpaint.com/collections/car-interior-paint-dashboard-paint

Finally, cannot believe that Gary was unable to follow the very detailed instructions with Images on the bumper. I think they have spent untold hours on the bumper. I can’t believe I was going to have my mechanic install my bumper. Getting close but I think that it is unlikely I will have this vehicle done for several weeks. Thanks again for all of your help

 

[JFENG]

@arnie and @bfeng, AGREE completely on ALL points.
Frankly, I didn't know how to handle it. My buddy saw the fisheye and brought it to my attention. He said it is UNACCEPTABLE, and was clear about it. He said it occurred simply because there is dirt on base coat and it wasn't removed before base coat, and likely nothing can be done now as a result. He called it simply lazy.

I just paid a hair under $5k a repaint of my race car. But, I t’s a car is small, no windows only four pieces of bright trim, no bumpers, sidelights, hood and trunk light enough to be one handlers, no body mods, etc.

My new paint has three very small fisheyes, and I found two places where I can see sanding scratches in the final primer coat. Also, the wet sand and buff left a small amount of visible orange peel at a couple of lower body panel edges. The start to end was 3 weeks (incl fixing a crash That munched the rear end). I’d say I got what I paid for.

Here in MA, I know of no shop that will do a “flawless to the layperson-eye” paint job for under $12-$15k, and that’s starting from excellent sheet metal (no rust and or crash repair). This is at body shops that charge $60-$75 per hour.

I would not say your painter was lazy. I would say he delivered an inexpensive paint job
While your friends are simultaneously raising your level of sensitivity to restoration quality.

My friend had one of his race cars painted. Cost nearly $30k. The entire body was in great shape but they disassembled, and redid all the panel joints, “the” expert on this specific car model was brought in several times to inspect/verify the shape of the panels was all correct, they final blocked it multiple times (+15hours), the entire car was sanded out BETWEEN the color and clear coat to check for imperfections (+10 hours) and to ensure a perfect base for the clear. The cut and buff was done before body reassembly so they could get to the tricky spots, edges, etc. The paint was left to harden for almost two months before they started reassembly. The whole process took over 6 months because the shop was told to take all the time necessary to do their best work. The result is flawless and show worthy.

I feel you are putting Benny between a rock and a hard place on the combination of price, schedule, & quality relative to the shop’s experience with E9’s.

FWIW fisheyes can be fixed by redoing the area (or panel). Black is not super hard to blend (even in a two stage). Don’t tell Benny it can’t be fixed because of what your friend said. That would be akin to an amateur questioning an expert’s knowledge.

 

[scottevest]

I just paid a hair under $5k a repaint of my race car. But, I t’s a car is small, no windows only four pieces of bright trim, no bumpers, sidelights, hood and trunk light enough to be one handlers, no body mods, etc.

My new paint has three very small fisheyes, and I found two places where I can see sanding scratches in the final primer coat. Also, the wet sand and buff left a small amount of visible orange peel at a couple of lower body panel edges. The start to end was 3 weeks (incl fixing a crash That munched the rear end). I’d say I got what I paid for.

Here in MA, I know of no shop that will do a “flawless to the layperson-eye” paint job for under $12-$15k, and that’s starting from excellent sheet metal (no rust and or crash repair). This is at body shops that charge $60-$75 per hour.

I would not say your painter was lazy. I would say he delivered an inexpensive paint job
While your friends are simultaneously raising your level of sensitivity to restoration quality.

My friend had one of his race cars painted. Cost nearly $30k. The entire body was in great shape but they disassembled, and redid all the panel joints, “the” expert on this specific car model was brought in several times to inspect/verify the shape of the panels was all correct, they final blocked it multiple times (+15hours), the entire car was sanded out BETWEEN the color and clear coat to check for imperfections (+10 hours) and to ensure a perfect base for the clear. The cut and buff was done before body reassembly so they could get to the tricky spots, edges, etc. The paint was left to harden for almost two months before they started reassembly. The whole process took over 6 months because the shop was told to take all the time necessary to do their best work. The result is flawless and show worthy.

I feel you are putting Benny between a rock and a hard place on the combination of price, schedule, & quality relative to the shop’s experience with E9’s.

FWIW fisheyes can be fixed by redoing the area (or panel). Black is not super hard to blend (even in a two stage). Don’t tell Benny it can’t be fixed because of what your friend said. That would be akin to an amateur questioning an expert’s knowledge.

This is very helpful information. I honestly thought all of you guys would chastise me for allowing these imperfections to slip especially if they could be easily fixed.

 

[Markos]

This thread has been very informative for me. My paint budget is $6K, but that is for painting and sanding with zero assembly. I didn’t even know about fish eyes. I have three viable options and two are significantly less than $6K. I do know all about the three legged stool as it is referenced frequently for IT consulting work - but it applies to just about any service.

 

[Eiremon]

I have been watching this thread as it goes along and am not surprised that the car is still in the shop with a lot of work left to do. You cannot expect a shop with no experience on these cars to be able to accurately predict the time it will take to complete the work. If someone tried to impose a timeline on a project in an area I had no experience with I would either a) refuse or b) provide a VERY conservative estimate after doing some homework and consulting with others. The deadline here was customer imposed and the shop should have never committed to it with so many moving parts.

While I appreciate the efforts made to document the work, the video highlights in obvious fashion that the shop does not know these cars and is relying on others to provide direction - as expected when this all started. I do give them credit for a) their efforts and b) their transparency. Many shops would not put up with the video and daily visits. At the end of the day, I don't think this build is going to convince many to send their E9's to them. If anything it reinforces the challenges faced when dealing with these cars and why going to an expert is beneficial.

Paint is an area that they should be able to get right. My reaction when watching the video of the paint booth was that everyone seemed to be very casual with coming and going, hanging out in the doorway, etc. while the paint was in progress and still wet. I have never been involved in a paint project but it did seem a bit too relaxed for me. It's not always about whether your booth costs $10k or $1m, it's about your process, quality control, etc.

All of this being said, I do think at the end of the day you will end up with a nice looking driver E9 which will turn heads and provide for many enjoyable miles of driving. I agree with the others, give them a little room to finish and be careful not to piss them off

 

[scottevest]

I have been watching this thread as it goes along and am not surprised that the car is still in the shop with a lot of work left to do. You cannot expect a shop with no experience on these cars to be able to accurately predict the time it will take to complete the work. If someone tried to impose a timeline on a project in an area I had no experience with I would either a) refuse or b) provide a VERY conservative estimate after doing some homework and consulting with others. The deadline here was customer imposed and the shop should have never committed to it with so many moving parts.

While I appreciate the efforts made to document the work, the video highlights in obvious fashion that the shop does not know these cars and is relying on others to provide direction - as expected when this all started. I do give them credit for a) their efforts and b) their transparency. Many shops would not put up with the video and daily visits. At the end of the day, I don't think this build is going to convince many to send their E9's to them. If anything it reinforces the challenges faced when dealing with these cars and why going to an expert is beneficial.

Paint is an area that they should be able to get right. My reaction when watching the video of the paint booth was that everyone seemed to be very casual with coming and going, hanging out in the doorway, etc. while the paint was in progress and still wet. I have never been involved in a paint project but it did seem a bit too relaxed for me. It's not always about whether your booth costs $10k or $1m, it's about your process, quality control, etc.

All of this being said, I do think at the end of the day you will end up with a nice looking driver E9 which will turn heads and provide for many enjoyable miles of driving. I agree with the others, give them a little room to finish and be careful not to piss them off

Again, appreciated sincerely. I don't fully understand what makes an e9 so special compared to so many other older cars that this shop and others work on, e.g. they are doing a Stanley Steamer for god's sake among other stuff. Isn't every single car they do unique in it's own way. How is the e9 so freaking special. Yea, I get how converting 74 bumpers to 73 with 72 brackets is unique and helpful to have resources or experiences, but painting to ensure dust/dirt doesn't get in, removing windshields, remediating rust, etc. shouldn't be rocket science? But apparently it is.

I am going to go MIA for a few days, perhaps checking back in Tuesday or Wednesday next week. I have sent the information on bumper install, and rotors to Gary, but no response to date.

I will chat with Benny and hope it will make the fisheyes right either now or in the winter, even if it costs me more. I will also offer to pay more for the bumper install as I don't think he had any idea what was involved, assuming his "extras" price is inline.

This has been quite an eduction for me too. I had no idea how much went into this. For the record, only recently have I been doing daily drop byes, whereas previously only going weekly or so, but not much was happening then.

I am starting to think that July is looking more likely as others have suggested. Thanks again.

Scott

 

[Markos]

Again, appreciated sincerely. I don't fully understand what makes an e9 so special compared to so many other older cars that this shop and others work on, e.g. they are doing a Stanley Steamer for god's sake among other stuff. Isn't every single car they do unique in it's own way. How is the e9 so freaking special.

I agree with you somewhat that there is nothing particularly special about the e9 from a nuts and bolts perspective, painting, etc. I think that there are multiple caveats that impact both new body shops and shops that focus on old cars. For the old car shops in the US (as evident with Benny's car storage area), they are focusing on 30's - 60's automobiles. Although they have a lot of chrome, the construction is all very simple body on frame stuff. Simple engine bays, simple interiors, bench seats, removable body panels, and a ton of shared or nearly identical platforms. With most of the american muscle, one could build a new car from the ground up by order parts off of one of the numerous US vendor sites. If something breaks during disassembly, order a new one. A lot of things changed in the 70's. American cars started to suck. The construction didn't change (aka fell behind overseas competition), but the engines got more restrictive as a knee jerk reaction to the oil crisis. So you don't have nearly as many 70's american cars under restoration, particularly with mid to late 70's. Meanwhile, European and Japanese cars got more refined, and more complex. We are now talking about unibody construction, more electronics, different build materials. How many top end american cars (from the big four) hand aluminum body panels? Also, you can no longer do a "frame off" restoration anymore. This is where rotisseries come into play.

The expertise comes in when you need to order rubber. When you need to know what to treat like glass because the part hasn't been available since 1992. What brake caliper goes in front and what goes in the rear. What shocks to order. The fact that the rocker panels are a three layer construction. Where the spot welds are for the fender, how they are brazed at the a-pillar. The tricks to assemble the belt-line trim. The tricks to install the bumper (as documented here). How to properly tuck the leather seats. That the dashboard would should be European walnut. The differences in parts year over year, and why a 1972 is different from a 1973 and why a 1974 is significantly different. The list goes on and on (and on and on). You only scratched the surface because you did no engine work, and the fenders and rockers stayed on. This is what restoration shops do, and why they easily charge 100+ an hour. You can drop a car off, tell them what you want as a finished product, then pick the car up. This applies to BMW's as well as any make, including american cars. Think about all of the subtle variations that the Ford Mustang received year over year.

As far as new paint shops, forget about it. See if they can figure out how to remove your windscreen without bending your NLA aluminum trim. Then ask them to reinstall the windscreen which uses a rubber seal and no glue. Ask them if they are used to dealing with screws that can rest on their fingernail. If you want a respray with taped off trim, then go for it. Not much needs to be said about using a shop that gets 90% of their business from insurance companies.

I think that your shop is doing a great job given the second-hand information that they are receiving. I believe I said it before but I think the folks over their have been saints. Of course all of this was communicated to you from the start, and you chose to stick with a local shop. I think that is great and I think that you made a sound decision. Just don't be too hard on the folks over there, and perhaps go easy on the "I just can't believe" rhetoric.

 

[JFENG]

Good paint is generic. It's just a balance between expectation and price. The fisheye's on your car ... Benny should fix them, and worst case share the cost with you. Best case, he eats the cost. From 2400 miles away they don't look like a big deal to fix, and I'm wondering if Benny is trying to convince you they are a big deal because he's already not hitting his target profit margins on your job.

E9 powertrain is BMW specific but generic wrt BMW coupes and sedans of of the 1970-80's. But once you start modifying (like going to a 5spd), then you need someone with model specific knowledge because you're deviating from what a mechanic can find in the OEM repair manual.

E9 body and trim: BMW, like most other OEM's, had/has 2 classes of vehicles. The first is mass market main stream stuff that was fully designed in-house and built in high volume in the OEM's massive factories. Back in 1974, this was the 2002 and the E3. Then they had/have the low volume niche vehicles where it was (and often still is) financially impractical to build 2000 of them in a factory optimized to produce 200k units a year. Imagine if you have a production line optimized to produce BMW X5's, and you want to build one i6 every 300th X5. What a mess that would be without modern computerized systems for inventory, and build control. So, OEM's had and still sometimes turn to small volume specialists for some of the design and mfg of niche cars. In the old days, these would be called "coach builder" and the vehicles would be called "coach built." Some companies still use that terminology today. Magna-Steyr in Austria builds low volume produces for German and Japanese OEM's (Daimler, Infiniti, Toyota, BMW, etc.). BMW used Karman back in the day for the E9, and Lamborghini for the M1. Toyota used an outside mfg (well, part of their Kuretsu) for the MR2. Think about Thrupp and Maberly, F. Mulliner, Touring of Italy, Bertone (in the 1950's), PininFarina (Cadillac Allante), and so on.

So, why are coach built cars such a pain in the rear?
In the olden days, when things like CAD and CAE were relatively primitive, coach built companies designed bodies and trim based on the limitations of their own mfg capability and the capability of their small-volume supply chain for bits and bobs like belt-line trim. That's why you end up with sh*t like the way the E9 fenders and wasser-kofferraum come together in a mish-mash of overlapping spot welded panels that are exposed to ingress of moisture and dirt ... and a perfect recipe for how to maximum the propensity to rust. Karman lacked the capability to e-coat the entire chassis (electro-assisted application of anti-corrosion treatment), and they may have lacked the capability to stamp and spot weld zinc galvanized panels. This is one of the reasons the early Porsches 911's and l356's were also so rust-prone (it wasn't just the lack of galvanized sheet metal).

Finally, because these are fairly low volume cars, most restoration shops don't see a steady stream of them coming thru so expertise is limited to shops that have chosen to specialize. I'd say Benny's shop is still a handful of E9s away from really knowing the E9 well.

If you took a 1978 year old Toyota Corolla into a generic restoration shop or a place that fixes 500 toyota's a year, and you start asking for things like
"convert my bumper from the '78 to a '74 style," and you expect them to be knowledgeable on parts, original finishes, and the eccentricities of how the body goes together .... you'll either have to pay extra $$ for the shop to teach themselves about 1974-78 Corollas or you'd get a half-ass'd job.

Scott, I hope you can work it out and get those paint imperfections fixed for free. But, given how much the shop has been thru on this project, I'm sure your willingness to cost - share will mean a lot to Benny.

John

 

[scottevest]

Good paint is generic. It's just a balance between expectation and price. The fisheye's on your car ... Benny should fix them, and worst case share the cost with you. Best case, he eats the cost. From 2400 miles away they don't look like a big deal to fix, and I'm wondering if Benny is trying to convince you they are a big deal because he's already not hitting his target profit margins on your job.

E9 powertrain is BMW specific but generic wrt BMW coupes and sedans of of the 1970-80's. But once you start modifying (like going to a 5spd), then you need someone with model specific knowledge because you're deviating from what a mechanic can find in the OEM repair manual.

E9 body and trim: BMW, like most other OEM's, had/has 2 classes of vehicles. The first is mass market main stream stuff that was fully designed in-house and built in high volume in the OEM's massive factories. Back in 1974, this was the 2002 and the E3. Then they had/have the low volume niche vehicles where it was (and often still is) financially impractical to build 2000 of them in a factory optimized to produce 200k units a year. Imagine if you have a production line optimized to produce BMW X5's, and you want to build one i6 every 300th X5. What a mess that would be without modern computerized systems for inventory, and build control. So, OEM's had and still sometimes turn to small volume specialists for some of the design and mfg of niche cars. In the old days, these would be called "coach builder" and the vehicles would be called "coach built." Some companies still use that terminology today. Magna-Steyr in Austria builds low volume produces for German and Japanese OEM's (Daimler, Infiniti, Toyota, BMW, etc.). BMW used Karman back in the day for the E9, and Lamborghini for the M1. Toyota used an outside mfg (well, part of their Kuretsu) for the MR2. Think about Thrupp and Maberly, F. Mulliner, Touring of Italy, Bertone (in the 1950's), PininFarina (Cadillac Allante), and so on.

So, why are coach built cars such a pain in the rear?
In the olden days, when things like CAD and CAE were relatively primitive, coach built companies designed bodies and trim based on the limitations of their own mfg capability and the capability of their small-volume supply chain for bits and bobs like belt-line trim. That's why you end up with sh*t like the way the E9 fenders and wasser-kofferraum come together in a mish-mash of overlapping spot welded panels that are exposed to ingress of moisture and dirt ... and a perfect recipe for how to maximum the propensity to rust. Karman lacked the capability to e-coat the entire chassis (electro-assisted application of anti-corrosion treatment), and they may have lacked the capability to stamp and spot weld zinc galvanized panels. This is one of the reasons the early Porsches 911's and l356's were also so rust-prone (it wasn't just the lack of galvanized sheet metal).

Finally, because these are fairly low volume cars, most restoration shops don't see a steady stream of them coming thru so expertise is limited to shops that have chosen to specialize. I'd say Benny's shop is still a handful of E9s away from really knowing the E9 well.

If you took a 1978 year old Toyota Corolla into a generic restoration shop or a place that fixes 500 toyota's a year, and you start asking for things like
"convert my bumper from the '78 to a '74 style," and you expect them to be knowledgeable on parts, original finishes, and the eccentricities of how the body goes together .... you'll either have to pay extra $$ for the shop to teach themselves about 1974-78 Corollas or you'd get a half-ass'd job.

Scott, I hope you can work it out and get those paint imperfections fixed for free. But, given how much the shop has been thru on this project, I'm sure your willingness to cost - share will mean a lot to Benny.

John

I LOVE Benny and Gary. They are doing a great job. I just want to be sure that OBVIOUS fisheye imperfections will be addressed. I "approved" the prep work and signed off on the car when it was gray, before it was painted, and could not see a single imperfection. It's all about setting expectations. If obvious imperfections from 5' away are to be expected, then I should know. If it cost extra to ensure they are taken care of, then tell me. As things stand now, I think Benny agreed, sort of, to deal with all of this before he is done. I hope and trust that is the case. If Benny comes to me hat in hand saying, "hey, these bumpers have cost me WAY more than either of us could have possibly thought, would you mind helping out?," I would say fine, although I have to say that I am not sure that Gary is paying close attention to the specific information provided. So putting that aside for time-being, the only other "gripe" is figuring out realistically when it will be done/done, and on the road. I am so anxious, and know that can be annoying, but hoping to find out soon when that may be. Frankly, the aluminum work needs 2-3 more weeks, so there's my answer, sort of. I had planned on spending April-May in California this year, and thought I'd bring the Coupe. If they simply told me, "that ain't going to happen," I would have said, ok and driven my 911 there. Not a big deal.

All will be well, and I again thank all of you for your help. I feel like you have been my shrink in this process.

Moving on: I ordered below from www.colorbondpaint.com. I plan to "paint" the interior myself next week. I will let you know how that goes. Wish me luck!


1x Adhesion Promoter Clear Aerosol (215) - Clear (215) for $15.95 each

1x Prep Cleaner Clear 4oz (09) - Cleaner Clear (09) for $6.95 each

4x L, V & HP Refinisher: Jaguar - Jaguar: Autumn Tan (1991) for $16.49 each

 

[JFENG]

This thread has been very informative for me. My paint budget is $6K, but that is for painting and sanding with zero assembly. I didn’t even know about fish eyes. I have three viable options and two are significantly less than $6K. I do know all about the three legged stool as it is referenced frequently for IT consulting work - but it applies to just about any service.

View attachment 46189

Markos,
My car painting knowledge is over 35 years old, so take this all with a block of salt:

some of the best paint jobs I've ever seen were ones where the owner did all the prep at home, and the shop just did a quickly block coat + sealer + color/clear. I have one friend who took his car in 100% ready for color/clear coat and he rubbed it out after he got it back home. He got a near show quality paint job for just a bit over $1000. I've not painted a whole car in a long long time, but here's what I would do. Ask the shop if they would give you advice on how they want you prep for paint. Ignore their 1st answer, which will be "pay us to do everything." A really nice shop owner may provide advice which will ensure your work (chemicals, process, etc.) are compatible with the shop's expectations. If you do this and put enough sweat equity into it, you could end up with a spectacular paint job for $6k.

"I "approved" the prep work and signed off on the car when it was gray"

Scott, rest easy that you could not possibly have known there was surface contamination that would cause fish-eye's in the paint. I think Benny's expectation for your sign-off was only for the shape of the panels and the shut-lines.

Fisheyes are usually defined as a problem of low adhesion caused by chemical contamination. If the adhesion is low enough, the surface tension of the paint pulls paint away from the point of contamination, resulting in a spot with little to no paint. This creates a physical crater in the paint, which is visually obvious because light is reflected totally differently than by the surrounding flat paint surface. The most common culprit is presence of substances containing oils and silicon (wax/polishes, etc). Silicon contamination is usually invisible and undetectable in a home or normal body shop environment. Back in the day there was no way to test for presence of silicon contamination without spraying a coat of color or clear. IOW, you had to paint the car to know if you were going to have a contamination problem. It's not trivial to clean silicon-based contaminants without being environmentally irresponsible. Standard pre-paint degreasers have gotten so environmentally (and less aggressive wrt cleaning power) they don't always work. In the old days, I'd sometimes do a full wipe down with lacquer thinner (and a mountain of lint-less wipes). At the time I didn't really think about the fact that I was releasing huge quantities of VOC's into the air. Apologies to everyone, with 20/20 hindsight.

One advantage of going down to bare metal is you can then use strong chemical cleaners such as halogenated degreasers or acid etches to break-down contaminants. I've heard from our mfg guys there are non-invasive ways to test for Silicon contamination, but IDK if it is practical to use industrial detection methods in a body-shop environment. https://www.pcimag.com/articles/970...on-and-analysis-of-silicone-films-on-surfaces

Grit, bugs, dirt in the primer or base-coat usually evidence themselves with a nit, pip or pimple (a raised area surrounded by a bit of a depressed area or moat), that can be smoothed out when the finish is sufficiently wet-sanded and buffed (may still be visible but the clear coat will be flat/smooth).

 

[JFENG]

Moving on: I ordered below from www.colorbondpaint.com. I plan to "paint" the interior myself next week. I will let you know how that goes. Wish me luck!
1x Adhesion Promoter Clear Aerosol (215) - Clear (215) for $15.95 each
1x Prep Cleaner Clear 4oz (09) - Cleaner Clear (09) for $6.95 each
4x L, V & HP Refinisher: Jaguar - Jaguar: Autumn Tan (1991) for $16.49 each

Read and UNDERSTAND the directions. Follow the directions meticulously. Don't cheap out on things like use of alcohol and plenty of wipes to clean the old surfaces. Reusing an old wipe that might be contaminated with a bit too much grime is a false economy.

 

[m_thompson]

My car painting knowledge is over 35 years old, so take this all with a block of salt:

Fisheyes are usually defined as a problem of low adhesion caused by chemical contamination.

My painting knowledge is also that old. The shop that I worked in specialized in muscle cars and custom paint work, all in nitrocellulose lacquer . Silicone was a common additive to car wax and really caused problems with fish eyes. Even the non-environmentally friendly cleaners available at the time could not guarantee a clean surface. We mixed a product called Fish Eye Remover in the paint to eliminate the fish eyes due to the silicone. FEE has its own set of side effects, one being more orange peel. Since we were wet sanding the finish we didn't care. Looks like FEE is still available.

 

[JFENG]

My painting knowledge is also that old. The shop that I worked in specialized in muscle cars and custom paint work, all in nitrocellulose lacquer . Silicone was a common additive to car wax and really caused problems with fish eyes. Even the non-environmentally friendly cleaners available at the time could not guarantee a clean surface. We mixed a product called Fish Eye Remover in the paint to eliminate the fish eyes due to the silicone. FEE has its own set of side effects, one being more orange peel. Since we were wet sanding the finish we didn't care. Looks like FEE is still available.

I remember that FEE stuff and rumor was it was just MORE silicon. We conjectured that it worked because if the entire surface isnuniformly contaminated then you don't have localized variation in surface adhesion ... and therefore no fisheyes. But the reason you got more orange peel is that it enables the surface tension of the paint to pull up more because the surface of the primer was slicker. Well, that's what we all thought when drinking a beer on the back deck. And, boy you must be old... When I got into it lacquers were already synthetic.

 

[scottevest]

Hoping my Coupe is ready in time for this event, https://www.e9coupe.com/forum/threa...ers-ed-event-june-22-23-miller-raceway.28761/ on June 22. Seems like it would be possible. Perhaps I should give Benny a bonus to finish in time, provided the Chrome work is done in time.

SLC BMW/Porsche Driver's Ed event June 22-23 Miller Raceway
So excited! I used to do these track events all the time in Chicago (Road America, Gingerman, Blackhawk, etc.), but haven'd done this in forever. I hope to take my Coupe, if done from mini-restoration, but not drive it very hard, otherwise I will take my Porsche Cayenne Turbo S. Any other members going?

 

[JFENG]

So you have an old school 911 Cabrini and a Cayenne Turbo S! Are you more P-car or B-car? FWIW, that Porsche redefined the phrase SPORT utility vehicle for me when I first drove one. Amazing.

 

[scottevest]

So you have an old school 911 Cabrini and a Cayenne Turbo S! Are you more P-car or B-car? FWIW, that Porsche redefined the phrase SPORT utility vehicle for me when I first drove one. Amazing.

Hard to say. I have never tracked a BMW, but have tracked my Mini Cooper S, which I loved. I haven't tracked my Cayenne, but would LOVE too. My first love however no doubt is my coupe. I had an 86 635csi that I loved and got in lieu of an e9. Am I crazy to track my coupe, so soon after the paint? I will take it very easy. Let's hope that perhaps I can get Benny to finish for this, which to me seems feasible, especially if I don't insist he fixes the fisheye stuff if it requires repainting. I would pay him a bonus to agree to a completion date that allows me sufficient time to test drive a bit to work any bugs out. Can't do anything until the window bright work is done and windows are in, so it is moot until then. I think I will be picking that up next week. Staying on radio silence with Benny/Gary until Tuesday or Wednesday to address.

Will be trying to do the interior "painting" myself, following directions very carefully.