The Raven e9 project

[autokunst]

Are you sure you need to remove rear fenders?

Well this is an interesting question - one that has given me pause. My goal is to reveal all metal so I can assess condition and repair any and all damage/corrosion. I do need to replace all three layers of the sills below, and need to cut away at least a portion of the bottom of the quarter panel to facilitate this. WN sells a patch for the wheel arch, and also the front corner that covers the sill. However, it is only about 1/3 of the area between the wheel arch and the door (at least the patch I have is only that portion). But your question makes me want to probe a little deeper with the borescope and evaluate if I can get away with just removing the patch areas. This would save a heap of drilling out welds! Thanks for planting this seed. I'm still not sorry I made this profile template.

Having removed them before, I’m going to try to avoid this. Removal turns them to swiss cheese. The medal is almost entirely accessible save for the windshield frame and wheel arch. As noted by @autokunst, w&n seals the arch. Removing said arch exposes
the lip of the inner fender. Walkout also sells the lower portion of the fender forward of the wells. This area needs to be removed to access the rocker.

However, One caveat to dipping the car is that the entire wheel arch and windshield frame is bare metal at this point. Removing the fenders would allow for one to prime the are. Most of this could be accomplished however with some paint wands.

I will not need to spot prime the concealed areas as I'll be re-dipping the entire car again to clean bare metal and then electrodeposition coating it. This will seal all of the hidden areas.

 

[Markos]

I will not need to spot prime the concealed areas as I'll be re-dipping the entire car again to clean bare metal and then electrodeposition coating it. This will seal all of the hidden areas.

Ahh wonderful. One reason I have been hesitant to dip is due to lack of availability of e-coat shops. Where are you e-coating yours?

 

[autokunst]

There is a facility in Franklin, Wisconsin. This is the same place that is doing the dipping. It is a one stop shop. Restoration Specialists.

 

[adawil2002]

There are 258 spot welds holding both rear quarters & the tail panel. There is always some corrosion hidden behind the quarters. The coupes I've seen this done to were plastic media blasted. So it makes me wonder if dipping the car addresses this area sufficiently. When the lower quarter is off to patch into the rocker, this area will be mostly visible.

 

[eriknetherlands]

Having a spare quarter panel, and some rust on my car, i had the same question on my hands. In the end I choose to keep the QP in place and just replace sections.
Here's my reason; the bottom sections of the quarter panels are available as sections from W&N, so I purchased those. Then when i chopped the bottoms off, i could asses the condition of the overlapping sheet metal in the wheel arch corners. There was some rust in the bottom corners of the wheel arch, but it stopped about 10 cm (4 inches) up. The W&N repair panels were high enough to replace the rusted bit. The remaining (unseen) section of the wheel arch that has remained unopened is arguably (but unproven) OK.
It also means that i haven't 'wasted' a full NOS right rear quarter panel on the 'light' rust that I had.

If I were to replace a full quarter panel, and if I already had a dolly like in your pics, then I would extend the steel tubes so that it creates a screw attachment point at some obvious locations such as the rear trim oblong hole and the side bumper mounting point. Perhaps also add some simple steel rods/bars to define position; a clamp to a fixed tube perhaps around the tank opening. CLECO's also help al lot, but only if both of the 2 sheets do not need to be replaced. Drill the holes prior to separating the panel, then split the spot welds, and when it's time to reinstall, just align with the CLECO's and plug/spot weld.

I have the feeling the wood panel is not accurate enough in 3D. In one dimension (up-down) it'll work just fine, but what about the flop in the wood panel? if you bend it a bit inwards, it also hangs a bit lower. If you bend it a bit outwards from nominal, the end point sits a bit higher...
Imagine how it will work with the panels off; they are suspended in mid-air, with no left-right (as seen from driver) fixation. I would be hesitant: If it would not be good enough (acurate) to your liking, then you have a hell of a time to figure out something new, as you then likely have the QP's off, and no reference left.
If you choose to keep the wood panel, then I would suggest add a full length contoured panel at 90 degree to your current panel; then it is fixed in 3D, and all that is left is the relative position vs the rest of the car.

(just my thoughts, having only 1 quarter panel as experience)

 

[autokunst]

Wow, so much great feedback - thank you! I thought I should reply in a timely manner to a few points:

@Markos - First, a correction. I'd mentioned earlier that the rear quarter patch panel doesn't extend from the wheel well to the B pillar. I remembered that incorrectly. After checking my parts this morning, the panel is full length. This alleviates my prior concern.

@HB Chris - Thank you for being the voice in the room that challenged removing the whole quarter. Realizing what I have, and the process I'll take, I completely agree that "not" removing them is far preferred. I now plan to cut away the wheel arch area and the front bottom patch area and use the resulting opening to explore the interior panels. You'll all see what I'm dealing with, and I (we) can go from there. Perhaps that will save a ton of work with no detriment to the project.

@eriknetherlands - Thank you as always for the really detailed and informative feedback and advice. I'd made the wooden template from a paper template that I'd manipulated, torn, taped, etc - made in the spirit of a flexible shape pattern. Which is to say, the paper template recognized some of the 3 dimensional aspects of the car while the wood profile does not. I did, however, cut and fit the bottom of that wood template such that when it flexes and lays down across the fenders, the bottom edge is very precise to the crease. I'd never intended to remove both quarters at once. So I would have the rear panel in place and tube braced to the car, and also the B pillar, braced - so I thought I could fit the left-right aspect of a single quarter panel fairly precisely. That combined with my profile reference would give pretty good feedback for alignment. But perhaps I will not need to remove as much as I'd planned and much of this will be moot. I do like the ide of adding a second profile reference that is horizontal. But I'll try to focus my energy on some metal work before I start another wood project. Clearly I am procrastinating on the metal work - though I did shrink the wheel arch patch I'd previously shared. I still need to planish or wheel it a bit more, but it is much better already.

@adawil2002 - 258 spot welds! I figure I'll tackle 5 or 6 per night. That would be a month and a half before the panel is off - ha ha. I'll have forgotten why I was removing it by then. I am still replacing the floors in the trunk (both sides). This is due to the bump that the car took in a former life. So I'll need to grind the welds from the inside at the trunk floor level. But the goal will be to leave the quarters as whole as possible (IE not "perforated").

 

[Markos]

For the record, there are far less than 258 spot welds holding the rear fenders and tail panel on. It’s under 150, but with a stripped car you could give an exact number.

b-pillar
c-pillar
windshield frame
quarter window sill
wheel arch
rear tail panel
rocker lip

 

[autokunst]

This weekend I fabricated and installed "door braces" that will help to hold the chassis aligned and tight as I work on the rocker and adjacent areas below. My wife, a Jeep driver, thought I should keep them in case I want to drive around without the doors on (as she does in her wrangler). I did make them "bolt-on" and have had them on and off once already. These are pretty heavy walled tubes - reasonably stiff.

 

[CSteve]

They might help when Jimmy Jo or Janney Jo broadside you in their 5,000 lb Ram Pickup while texting about which club they are going to try and enter with their false id.

 

[autokunst]

I've been making slow (emphasize slow), but steady progress. I am taking a lot of time evaluating as I go, and taking off each layer independently even where I anticipate eventually removing multi-component assemblies. I'm doing this to (hopefully) learn more about how the pieces are assembled and fastened. Although there is some significant corrosion at the front and rear of the sills, the car still has completely solid geometry. I am contemplating not removing all of the layers of the sills, and instead patching portions where necessary. I haven't determined my comprehensive sequence yet, but it will come. I will also be bracing a bit more to keep that sill exactly where it belongs (where it is now). Today was rewarding because the right side outer sill came off. I was being extra careful with the bottom of the B pillar because it was completely solid and rust free above where the outer sill covered it. But upon exposing it, there is some corrosion at the bottom rear portion of the pillar. I hadn't ordered that part yet, so another order will be coming from W&N unless anyone has these pieces available state side.

 

[Markos]

Looking at your porous albeit squeaky clean rockers, I question why any e9 owner wouldn’t seriously consider dipping their car. What a great way to start your metal work!

 

[autokunst]

Looking at your porous albeit squeaky clean rockers, I question why any e9 owner wouldn’t seriously consider dipping their car. What a great way to start your metal work!

Well I certainly agree. If one is embarking on more than a "spot repair", this method has proven to be invaluable. It has revealed, well, everything - bad areas but also all of the beautiful, original areas, welds and laps. I feel it is making the subsequent work much more precise, digestible and understandable - at least in how I am approaching it. I don't think there is another method of "removal" that compares. Just the idea of not having to remove the undercoating by hand was worth the price of admission. And all the paint and filler was stripped to boot. It is fascinating how clean the bulk of the metal is.

 

[autokunst]

As noted elsewhere on the forum, I lost several days monkeying around with some panels from Wolf Steel/Alfa Parts. But now that that is behind me, I'm continuing with my "slow and steady" progress. This morning I removed the seat platform on the right hand side, revealing more of the floor pan. I had a momentary lapse of patience and thought I could take a shortcut and to the whole assembly off without removing portions of it first. But the car always wins. Fortunately I caught my err soon enough and proceeded with disassembly more commensurate with how the car was assembled originally. And I am pleased that I still have the inner sill in place, as my current plan is to keep them in the car for continuity. It was a good day.

 

[Markos]

Nice job @autokunst. Can you share what drill/bit you are using for the spot welds. I used the $5 HF bits on the parts car. I intend to buy a dedicated spot weld drill with an integrated clamp. I’m curious about the bits you used because the HF ones suck.

Also - those snaps unscrew (as you may know).

 

[autokunst]

Nice job @autokunst. Can you share what drill/bit you are using for the spot welds. I used the $5 HF bits on the parts car. I intend to buy a dedicated spot weld drill with an integrated clamp. I’m curious about the bits you used because the HF ones suck.

Also - those snaps unscrew (as you may know).

I snapped that photo before working the hem with a hammer and dolly to clean it up, and also before I removed the floor mat button. I collect these odd and end parts even though I'll likely never use them. By the way, I did seem to lose one of the captured nuts that hold the seat rail down. It is a loose square nut - not sure the size - that is "captured" within a little metal pocket. If anyone has one available...

Regarding spot weld drills, happy to share. When it comes to tools, I believe in getting the best quality you can afford (and cost doesn't always determine quality). But your problem is with the $5 HF drills. You need to spend, like, three times that. The ones I have are from Amazon for a whopping $16.90:

Server Busy

I have to say, once I developed a system, the spot welds are no match. I start by locating the welds to the bet of my ability/visibility. I'll either mark centers with a marker if I am doing a bunch all at once, or I'll go straight for the drill if only doing a few. I then drill pilot dimples with a 5/64" drill bit. I say dimples, because I try not to go all the way through the top layer of metal. Of course, if there is some rot in there, sometimes the bit punches right through. Once the pilot holes are done, I use the spot weld drill. It has a spring loaded pin that rides in the pilot dimple. If you tilt the drill, it will walk. But I start a little slower, and then once a grove is started I go full speed. Each one only takes a few seconds. In critical areas, I start and stop often to make sure I am not going too far. But you can usually tell the moment you go through the top layer - either by a little puff of rust dust, or a flash of heat coloration, or I can often actually feel the layers delaminate.

 

[Markos]

Thanks! I had three things against me. The first was the crappy bits. Second was skipping the pilot hole. Last and most important, it was very difficult to find some of the spot welds. You had a good solution to that!

I snapped that photo before working the hem with a hammer and dolly to clean it up, and also before I removed the floor mat button. I collect these odd and end parts even though I'll likely never use them. By the way, I did seem to lose one of the captured nuts that hold the seat rail down. It is a loose square nut - not sure the size - that is "captured" within a little metal pocket. If anyone has one available...

Regarding spot weld drills, happy to share. When it comes to tools, I believe in getting the best quality you can afford (and cost doesn't always determine quality). But your problem is with the $5 HF drills. You need to spend, like, three times that. The ones I have are from Amazon for a whopping $16.90:

Server Busy

I have to say, once I developed a system, the spot welds are no match. I start by locating the welds to the bet of my ability/visibility. I'll either mark centers with a marker if I am doing a bunch all at once, or I'll go straight for the drill if only doing a few. I then drill pilot dimples with a 5/64" drill bit. I say dimples, because I try not to go all the way through the top layer of metal. Of course, if there is some rot in there, sometimes the bit punches right through. Once the pilot holes are done, I use the spot weld drill. It has a spring loaded pin that rides in the pilot dimple. If you tilt the drill, it will walk. But I start a little slower, and then once a grove is started I go full speed. Each one only takes a few seconds. In critical areas, I start and stop often to make sure I am not going too far. But you can usually tell the moment you go through the top layer - either by a little puff of rust dust, or a flash of heat coloration, or I can often actually feel the layers delaminate.

 

[HonaloochieBoogie]

I read this post with an overwhelming feeling of awe. The fact that you have a creative/technical job and a family and can still find time to do this work to this standard is remarkable. I’m very handy and have taken on home renovation projects while I was employed in Management Consulting but now, even being retired I simply would not have the guts to do what you are doing. Hats off! Frankly, it’s seems like something between alchemy and insanity.

 

[autokunst]

Thank you so much for the kind words. Honestly, it is this forum that keeps me going - that makes me want to make progress and post it. I've "made" things for much of my life, and I really enjoy the art of making. But this project is a special combination of ingredients for me: a dream car, and a desire to improve my metal working skills. I know that this car is a challenge, but I believe the reward will be commensurate with the effort. I have tried to set a high standard for myself. Here again, other members on this forum are my motivation. They have set some very high bars and I look up to their work every time I see it. I welcome everyone to help keep me going - tips, advice, constructive criticism. Most of all, I look to the forum to help with info on originality and correctness. I may choose to deviate on a few details (maybe more than a few), but I want most to be just like it rolled off the factory line.

 

[autokunst]

Spot Welder
I purchased a used spot welder from a local eBay seller. When I picked it up, the switch was broken so it was untestable. I spent the past week and a half refurbishing various aspects of it, and this afternoon was able to test it out. It works! I'm not sure it works well, yet. But I hope to be able to dial in it. I spoke with the manufacturer, Miller, which is a local company. They sent me the manual for it, and tell me it is from 1958. That's older than the car, and me.

This unit is powerful, and seems to rely only on the timer to control the weld. Which is to say, it is full blast for some settable duration of time, measured in cycles from 2 to 90. Given we're on 60Hz power, that is between 1/30 of a second to 1.5 seconds. Are there more sophisticated units that can control power as well as time? I tested it on some very thin material (22 gauge - thinner than anything on the car). The first test burned right through - I had it turned up about half way or more. Then I turned it way down and it was too light. I ended up getting a couple of reasonable welds, but I think I need to dress the tips. They are a little rounded and that may be concentrating the heat irregularly.

It also sounds a bit like cross between Frankenstein's laboratory and a foley artist's interpretation of an electrocution. I have no reference if that is normal or not. When you squeeze the handle, it is not for the faint of heart.

 

[Dick Steinkamp]

It looks to be in beautiful condition for its age.

I think some practice with sheet metal scraps from the local HVAC company and you'll be a pro.