That, I can understand.
My Alpina B2 powered 3.0CS
- Thread starter JamesE30
- Start date
-
- Tags
- restoration list
Suspension in general can have a huge impact on a car’s performance. Wether it is just the springs or an entire new assembly. Of course simply lowering a car if done right is not likely to effect performance in a negative way, however Suspension geometry and composition can definitely have a huge impact on a car’s safety and is not to be taken lightly. (Despite being taken beyond the realms of a joke on some “stanced” cars today..)
As Keshav has explained the regulations here in Germany are officially very strict. There are of course ways around them, and it is always a question of how much you are willing to risk. My e30 is heavily modified and almost all of the modifications are entered on my paperwork. Enough that when a police person pulls me over and checks my papers, they see a huge list of modifications legally entered and assume that everything is on the books and can’t be bothered scrutanising the whole car on the side of the road. However I changed my wheels all the time, had wheel spacers, different steering wheels, and even different exhausts without detection... until the 2 yearly tüv inspection of course. The e30 was a car I was willing to take that risk with, the e9 is not. So while I only want a few major upgrades to this car I want to have it as legal and official as possible. The alpina engine and brakes included. The registration of those are one the cars papers since ‘88.
As Keshav has explained the regulations here in Germany are officially very strict. There are of course ways around them, and it is always a question of how much you are willing to risk. My e30 is heavily modified and almost all of the modifications are entered on my paperwork. Enough that when a police person pulls me over and checks my papers, they see a huge list of modifications legally entered and assume that everything is on the books and can’t be bothered scrutanising the whole car on the side of the road. However I changed my wheels all the time, had wheel spacers, different steering wheels, and even different exhausts without detection... until the 2 yearly tüv inspection of course. The e30 was a car I was willing to take that risk with, the e9 is not. So while I only want a few major upgrades to this car I want to have it as legal and official as possible. The alpina engine and brakes included. The registration of those are one the cars papers since ‘88.
“As far as the statistics are concerned, they surely have facts to back it all up.”
Actually, I doubt they have data to prove it.
In the absence of OEM levels of testing on every single aftermarket part, the safest position for the govt is to require the car’s to be kept stock, and that any non original parts match the originals in shape size and specification.
This is NOT the same thing as saying ALL aftermarket parts are unsafe. But without extensively testing the whole vehicle as a system, and testing to OEM levels (which is realistically impossible for a non-OEM), it is difficult to know for sure if an aftermarket part, which maybe very good quality in and of itself, will compromise the “system”
In Germany, the government tries to protect you by being really conservative.
Here in the USA, we tend to err on the side of personal responsibility. If you install a suspension that causes you to oversteer into an abutment, it’s your fault. But in truth, we all end up paying for that mistake via car and health insurance premiums. Same thing with smoking, scuba diving ... and racing cars. In the end the costs of these unhealthy choices are born by society.
I don’t claim to know what is better for society.
Actually, I doubt they have data to prove it.
In the absence of OEM levels of testing on every single aftermarket part, the safest position for the govt is to require the car’s to be kept stock, and that any non original parts match the originals in shape size and specification.
This is NOT the same thing as saying ALL aftermarket parts are unsafe. But without extensively testing the whole vehicle as a system, and testing to OEM levels (which is realistically impossible for a non-OEM), it is difficult to know for sure if an aftermarket part, which maybe very good quality in and of itself, will compromise the “system”
In Germany, the government tries to protect you by being really conservative.
Here in the USA, we tend to err on the side of personal responsibility. If you install a suspension that causes you to oversteer into an abutment, it’s your fault. But in truth, we all end up paying for that mistake via car and health insurance premiums. Same thing with smoking, scuba diving ... and racing cars. In the end the costs of these unhealthy choices are born by society.
I don’t claim to know what is better for society.
Interesting setup. I looked on the H&R website, and it gives no hit for the E9. Yours were specifically made I understand?
Knowing a bit on a side topic (Children in car accidents is my expertise), I know that data does exist and is used by the Germany ministry to a high level of detail on other safety related subjects that are very close to the question of 'OEM vs NON - OEM' parts. In general most rules in automotive have paid off in reducing fatalities. There is a nice graphic that shows the relation of new traffic rules and casualties. (Texts are: 1957 introduction of 50km/h limit in cities, Okt 72 introduction of 100km/h limit on country roads, '73 ntorduction of alcohol limits, 74 introduction of 'advice' speed on highway = no speed limit. 1980 fines for non-helmet use, 1984 fines fro no seatbelt use, 1998 reduction of alcohol limit)
https://www.thelocal.de/20170224/ro...t-level-in-60-years-but-thousands-still-dying
Interesting side topic in the US vs German view: "Personal responsibility' in German is incorparated as well; it's just not in the selection of the parts you screw on your car, but in the speed on the Autobahn. Wouldn't it be interesting to have no speed limit in the US, if the price would be "just' a strict aftermarket parts regime?
Knowing a bit on a side topic (Children in car accidents is my expertise), I know that data does exist and is used by the Germany ministry to a high level of detail on other safety related subjects that are very close to the question of 'OEM vs NON - OEM' parts. In general most rules in automotive have paid off in reducing fatalities. There is a nice graphic that shows the relation of new traffic rules and casualties. (Texts are: 1957 introduction of 50km/h limit in cities, Okt 72 introduction of 100km/h limit on country roads, '73 ntorduction of alcohol limits, 74 introduction of 'advice' speed on highway = no speed limit. 1980 fines for non-helmet use, 1984 fines fro no seatbelt use, 1998 reduction of alcohol limit)
https://www.thelocal.de/20170224/ro...t-level-in-60-years-but-thousands-still-dying
Interesting side topic in the US vs German view: "Personal responsibility' in German is incorparated as well; it's just not in the selection of the parts you screw on your car, but in the speed on the Autobahn. Wouldn't it be interesting to have no speed limit in the US, if the price would be "just' a strict aftermarket parts regime?
Last edited:
Great point.
If we had some unlimited speed sections in America it might show something interesting about all those poorly design aftermarket aero accessories I see on Civics and Elantras.
Well enough chit chat about German legal bureaucracies.. I want to build this car to my liking, while trying as much as possible to keep it legal..
The car is now blasted and the real work can begin. Underneuthe tbe paint/Bondo and rust was pretty much what we expected. Only a couple of extra sheet metals so far I will order (rear bumper)
Daunting, but excited to see it in its absolute bare state!
The car is now blasted and the real work can begin. Underneuthe tbe paint/Bondo and rust was pretty much what we expected. Only a couple of extra sheet metals so far I will order (rear bumper)
Daunting, but excited to see it in its absolute bare state!
Attachments
So after concidering my options long and hard, I have decided not to paint the car Taiga.
I just have to admit (against the thoughts of many on this forum) it is not one of my favourite colours for an e9, and I just can’t bring myself to do all this work, and go all the way back to bare metal, only to paint this car a colour I don’t like.
I prefer a much more understated colour, something with a bit more elegance than bright green.
I intend to use a Bmw colour, maybe even an e9 colour but I’m yet undecided which.
I just have to admit (against the thoughts of many on this forum) it is not one of my favourite colours for an e9, and I just can’t bring myself to do all this work, and go all the way back to bare metal, only to paint this car a colour I don’t like.
I prefer a much more understated colour, something with a bit more elegance than bright green.
I intend to use a Bmw colour, maybe even an e9 colour but I’m yet undecided which.
Taiga is pretty "in your face". Perhaps not as much as inka but still. I understand your position.
This is a difficult decision that I understand. The first time I repainted my coupe in 1984, I struggled with this and almost changed the color but ultimately kept it the original Taiga and have learned to love it. Since you are restoring it for yourself, paint it whatever color you like the best.
Slicktop! Very nice!
Belgiumbarry
Well-Known Member
strange…. i would prefer to keep a sunroof..... i love it in the red car and miss it in the blue one. ( must say i was a sigarette smoker, now E smoker)
I’m not a fan of the sunroof, I have one in two of my other cars and hardly use it. Also this was not an oem sunroof. It was some disgusting aftermarket bolt-on thing fitted in the 90’s or so.. it had to go! Was lucky to find this clean roof cut!
Very impressive work! Keep us posted!
BTW - If you decide to cut out most of the parcel shelf and weld in your big replacement - I could use all of your original pieces that you remove. I have a spare shelf (with speaker holes), but my target car has *five speaker holes in the rear. My spare piece will likely take care of 3.
BTW - If you decide to cut out most of the parcel shelf and weld in your big replacement - I could use all of your original pieces that you remove. I have a spare shelf (with speaker holes), but my target car has *five speaker holes in the rear. My spare piece will likely take care of 3.
Thanks. Will let you know about the left over parts from the parcel shelf. I'll probably have a bit of useful sheet metal left over and will let the forum know if anyones interested in it.
The tear down continues. It breaks my heart a little to see some of these pics already, but I have to admit I thought it might be worse :confused:
It is relieving knowing we already have most of this sheet metal ready to go on, and very satisfying to see the rust starting to get cut out!
Warning -not for the faint hearted!
Do you recommend floors or rockers first? I plan to do the floors before I strip the car. There are three other e9’s in WA that I could use as a potentially better start, but I would need floors to sell mine.
How do the German rules deal with incorporating parts from later BMWs? By way of example, many US e9 owners have changed our starters to use the starter from an e24 because the fixed magnet starters are much more efficient in actually starting the engine. Obviously, this is a BMW part that was an improvement BMW made to its line of M30 engines.
Would this type of change need approval, and listing in the paperwork with the car?
Would this type of change need approval, and listing in the paperwork with the car?
Honestly I couldn’t say with any real authority as I’m not doing the metalwork myself, but as the floors all need to be aligned and welded to the rocker structure, I would say it’s save to assume it would make sense to do the rockers first. Especially on my car where they were so far gone already.
Funny I was just looking at that upgrade just the other day. Unfortunately the Bosch SR441X which everyone seems to use appears to only be available in America. Can’t find one anywhere in Europe...
I think generally speaking oem replacement parts are not considered aftermarket upgrades as they already have some form of oem certification. Certainly something like a starter motor is never going to be noticed by any inspection.